lukelightning
First Post
jaer said:Cause it's a weapon not a class. Look again.
Oh, there it is, in the polearm section: Pallette de Pong.
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Why does epic level play entail treating death as a "speed bump"?
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Oh, there it is, in the polearm section: Pallette de Pong.
DM_Blake
First Post
There's another way to look at it.
But first we have to understand what death is, in game terms. And for that we need to understand what life is, too.
Simplified: life is a state where the body of flesh and muscle and bone and other tissues is animated by natural life-force, spirit, soul, whatever you call it (as opposed to being animated by ooky necromancy kind of unnatural means). Then death is the state of removing that life-force from the body, whether done by damaging the body so much that the life-force cannot remain there, or using magic like death spells to simply kick out the life-force.
Now that is really simplified, but that's a basic gist of it.
Where does that life-force go when it leaves the body?
Well, sometimes it doesn't go far. Ghosts, revenants, etc., stick around and haunt places and seek revenge on their killers.
But for everything else, it goes off to its happy hunting grounds, heaven, elysium, bytopia, the abyss, wherever is most appropriate.
OK, then at low levels, heroic PCs can't really do much about this. At paragon levels, PCs are starting to really get around, but are still mostly limited to the material plane and their home world. But at Epic levels, the PCs are out boogeying all over the multi-dimensional universe, visiting other worlds and other planes at will, coming and going wherever and whenver they please.
It seems a bit unjustified to say "Yeah, you can go to the abyss, or bytopia, or wherever, and you can visit your dead friends and companions and family, but you can't do anything to bring them home with you."
Sure, you could rule it that way if you want to.
But, in a game where everything else is possible, where players can level mountains with a gesture, then replace them with new mountains with another gesture, putting barriers between them and their dead companions, especially when they are standing there looking at their dead companion's spirit, seems arbitrary.
And ruling that "The gods won't let you take him back" is also a bit arbitrary, but at least believable - except that D&D provides for PCs killing gods. Assuming the PCs are powerful enough to engage and defeat gods, telling anyone with that kind of power that they can't do something like restoring their dead companion gets really arbitrary.
All you have left is "because I say so, so nyaa nyaa, neener neener."
So why not just make mechanics for it and avoid the whole "because I say so" mentality?
But first we have to understand what death is, in game terms. And for that we need to understand what life is, too.
Simplified: life is a state where the body of flesh and muscle and bone and other tissues is animated by natural life-force, spirit, soul, whatever you call it (as opposed to being animated by ooky necromancy kind of unnatural means). Then death is the state of removing that life-force from the body, whether done by damaging the body so much that the life-force cannot remain there, or using magic like death spells to simply kick out the life-force.
Now that is really simplified, but that's a basic gist of it.
Where does that life-force go when it leaves the body?
Well, sometimes it doesn't go far. Ghosts, revenants, etc., stick around and haunt places and seek revenge on their killers.
But for everything else, it goes off to its happy hunting grounds, heaven, elysium, bytopia, the abyss, wherever is most appropriate.
OK, then at low levels, heroic PCs can't really do much about this. At paragon levels, PCs are starting to really get around, but are still mostly limited to the material plane and their home world. But at Epic levels, the PCs are out boogeying all over the multi-dimensional universe, visiting other worlds and other planes at will, coming and going wherever and whenver they please.
It seems a bit unjustified to say "Yeah, you can go to the abyss, or bytopia, or wherever, and you can visit your dead friends and companions and family, but you can't do anything to bring them home with you."
Sure, you could rule it that way if you want to.
But, in a game where everything else is possible, where players can level mountains with a gesture, then replace them with new mountains with another gesture, putting barriers between them and their dead companions, especially when they are standing there looking at their dead companion's spirit, seems arbitrary.
And ruling that "The gods won't let you take him back" is also a bit arbitrary, but at least believable - except that D&D provides for PCs killing gods. Assuming the PCs are powerful enough to engage and defeat gods, telling anyone with that kind of power that they can't do something like restoring their dead companion gets really arbitrary.
All you have left is "because I say so, so nyaa nyaa, neener neener."
So why not just make mechanics for it and avoid the whole "because I say so" mentality?
lukelightning
First Post
DM_Blake said:
Good point. Disembodied souls in various forms are vary common in D&D. Perhaps when Zaron the Wizard dies, his ghost just hangs around his body for a while since he knows his buddy Goodkind the Cleric can patch up his body enough to reinhabit it (i.e. cast raise dead). Conversely, most people, when they die, don't bother to "haunt" their corpses since the know they have no chance of a re-life.
WalterKovacs
First Post
For Epic level ... from what we've seen so far ... you've been able to Raise Dead since the end of Heroic Tier. So, for OVER half your "career" in terms of levels, you've been able to have a "get out of death, not so free" card in terms of a ritual. Your Epic Destiny power is likely what is talked about, and that you get at 26. So at that level, depending on what kind of Epic Destiny you are on, you probably have SOME kind of uber-powerful being that has your continued survival in it's best interests. Then again, it may be powers at epic level for each class.
For a Rogue it might be literally escaping the clutches of death, while for a fighter it's turning back the tide of the river stix. For the magic guys it might be easier to justify it [cleric and palidan especially, but for wizards it can be some sort of contingency spell going off, while for a warlock it's the result of a pact you've made]. But even the martial characters at epic levels are likely taking on magical-esque type powers.
Of course, there is always the solution that previous editions have used to cut down on the revolving door of death issues, like soul binding crystals and such. Basically, plotonium can be used if a death should stick, but normally, having a PC die is an easy way to have one player spend the rest of the night off doing something else.
For a Rogue it might be literally escaping the clutches of death, while for a fighter it's turning back the tide of the river stix. For the magic guys it might be easier to justify it [cleric and palidan especially, but for wizards it can be some sort of contingency spell going off, while for a warlock it's the result of a pact you've made]. But even the martial characters at epic levels are likely taking on magical-esque type powers.
Of course, there is always the solution that previous editions have used to cut down on the revolving door of death issues, like soul binding crystals and such. Basically, plotonium can be used if a death should stick, but normally, having a PC die is an easy way to have one player spend the rest of the night off doing something else.
Brown Jenkin
First Post
hong said:
Works in real life too. http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Quirks/2008/03/06/french_mayor_bans_dying/5521/
Who says Death menas dead
As many people have pointed out death in the game mechanics means your PC just reached -Bloodied or you failed 3 saves after falling into negatives.
Ways to justify it could be that perhaps the ability triggers when you reach "death's door". Your badly beaten up but never actually dead it just looks really bad for you. it would be a mortal blow if not for the Uber-Powers of being EPIC.
Kind of like in TV shows where the hero gets the snot kicked out of him (or her) sees that the tension is at the highest, spits out a tooth and gets up fighting harder than ever and ultimately beating the bad guy.
In a narrative game style the above could be how the effect of the "once per day WHEN YOU DIE" is described but its use keys off of the mechanically clear term "dead" rather than the ambiguous "once per day when all hope is lost and defeat is imminent".
As many people have pointed out death in the game mechanics means your PC just reached -Bloodied or you failed 3 saves after falling into negatives.
Ways to justify it could be that perhaps the ability triggers when you reach "death's door". Your badly beaten up but never actually dead it just looks really bad for you. it would be a mortal blow if not for the Uber-Powers of being EPIC.
Kind of like in TV shows where the hero gets the snot kicked out of him (or her) sees that the tension is at the highest, spits out a tooth and gets up fighting harder than ever and ultimately beating the bad guy.
In a narrative game style the above could be how the effect of the "once per day WHEN YOU DIE" is described but its use keys off of the mechanically clear term "dead" rather than the ambiguous "once per day when all hope is lost and defeat is imminent".
robertliguori
First Post
cignus_pfaccari said:
I've seen representations of Gandalf that had Bard levels, and as far as I'm concerned, any character that stares down a Balor shouting "You shall not pass!" just cast Heroism, regardless of what it says on his sheet.
Apropos of nothing, Bard/Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage can be reflavored into an awesome istari. You get divine magic, minor fire blasty effects, inspiration via oratory, beatdown with sword and staff, and an explicit connection to the divine.
Fallen Seraph
First Post
Another example of "death being a speed bump" would be from GASP! a Anime. But Hellsing.
Alucard a extremely powerful vampire, can be literally turned into mush, but can slowly reform himself. This could be an example of "once per day when you die" you may be completely scattered across the dungeons floor, but you have enough supernatural ability to reform yourself (it is once per day since doing such a feat would sap a lot out of you).
Also, they have stated Epic as being something where: "Furthermore, epic destinies break the rules in dramatic ways." So the death mechanics could very well be different in Epic.
Alucard a extremely powerful vampire, can be literally turned into mush, but can slowly reform himself. This could be an example of "once per day when you die" you may be completely scattered across the dungeons floor, but you have enough supernatural ability to reform yourself (it is once per day since doing such a feat would sap a lot out of you).
Also, they have stated Epic as being something where: "Furthermore, epic destinies break the rules in dramatic ways." So the death mechanics could very well be different in Epic.
