Why does epic level play entail treating death as a "speed bump"?

[hong]

Because no-one died and they thus never realized it was missing?

No, no, I had people going to -10 hit points regularly (well, only the one guy, but he was a real hero). But instead of dying and all the mess and inconvenience that entails, I just say that they're slightly indisposed. After a while, they wake up, collect their guts from where they're lying on the floor, and keep going. But boy, will they be feeling sore for weeks.

(If you go to -10 hp, you're "defeated" and out of the fight. As long as the party survives, the others can revive you. This skips over all that tedious messing around with resurrect and gets right to the point. Everyone knows you got your ass kicked, so the negative utility of defeat is preserved. You also take a -2 penalty to everything for a week after dying, so there's an in-game mechanical penalty to reinforce the negative utility.)

 

[CleverNickName]

No, no, I had people going to -10 hit points regularly (well, only the one guy, but he was a real hero). But instead of dying and all the mess and inconvenience that entails, I just say that they're slightly indisposed. After a while, they wake up, collect their guts from where they're lying on the floor, and keep going. But boy, will they be feeling sore for weeks.

(If you go to -10 hp, you're "defeated" and out of the fight. As long as the party survives, the others can revive you. This skips over all that tedious messing around with resurrect and gets right to the point. Everyone knows you got your ass kicked, so the negative utility of defeat is preserved. You also take a -2 penalty to everything for a week after dying, so there's an in-game mechanical penalty to reinforce the negative utility.)

This reminds me of the way Final Fantasy handled character death. On the SNES console, you weren't really dead if you dropped to 0 HP, you merely passed out. ("Swoon," I think it was called.) If *everyone* in the party was at 0 HP, well, your game faded to black and you had to restart from your last save point.

 

[hong]

Actually, that's the way many modern CRPGs handle it: NWN2, KotoR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect. But not WoW.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Actually, that's the way many modern CRPGs handle it: NWN2, KotoR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect. But not WoW.

Well... usually when one or two people die of a group, but you triumph, everyone (usually) gets resurrected by the survivors in a lengthy, non-combat only 'ritual' if you will. That has the same effect as the games you mentioned, but removes some of the abstract hand-waving, putting a bit of strategy in it's place.

And if everyone dies, those who have them fire off their "once per day when you die" powers and do the same sort of thing.

Which is a lot better than "whoops, tpk, campaign's over!"

 

[GSHamster]

To play Devil's Advocate, that phrase "once per day" might not imply that a character is expected to die every day.

It could mean that this power takes a Daily power slot, and thus you lose a daily power if you choose to carry this power in case of a rare death.

It could also just be a limiter, to prevent an infinite combo. For example, if the power was "you come back from the dead and do massive damage to something" you literally cannot die without the phrase. Imagine trying to fight a Big Bad with such an ability.

Restricting it to once a day prevents such shenanigans.

 

[Henry]

Ladies and Gents, can we please stop with the "Fixed it for you" alterations of other people's words? It can get really annoying when people think others are trying to put words in their mouths.

Thank you.

 

[Wormwood]

Have you seen any indication that it's just for NPC's? Because my impression was that it was basically DM's choice as to who could be raised and who couldn't.

Because encouraging that level of DM-dickery is antithetical to the spirit of the 4e design mindset.

I'll cheerfully ebay my 4e rulebooks the very day I receive them if I'm mistaken. Seriously. Day ****ing one.

 

[Henry]

I'll cheerfully ebay my 4e rulebooks the very day I receive them if I'm mistaken. Seriously. Day ****ing one.

You'll give up your books if the DM has authority over resurrection magic in the game that he's running?

 

[Wormwood]

You'll give up your books if the DM has authority over resurrection magic in the game that he's running?

If the rules grant the DM authority to veto a player's ability to resurrect his own character?

In a heartbeat.

edit: barring mutually agreed upon house rules restricting resurrection magic, of course.

 

[KidSnide]

If the rules grant the DM authority to veto a player's ability to resurrect his own character?

Doesn't 3E give the DM authority to veto a player's ability to resurrect? I thought all RPGs had that...