D&D 5E Why Good Players Do Not 14.25.


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WarpedAcorn

First Post
Thank you for that marvelous little nugget of inspiration. I'll be spending all the time I'm watching TV devising ways in which to give my players yet one more duck that they should know better than to pick up in a dungeon.

Sorry, it was actually a HyrdaGoose...and like most Geese it was a total :):):):):):):). Also, it could Honk like a Goose which was a ranged attack. It was, of course, fought with a bunch of Dire Geese. It was a goofy fight, but a lot of fun.
 

I'm not sure when the tyranny of balance began, but once upon a time it was one tool in an arsenal of design; now it seems to be the actual goal.

Here's a perfectly balanced game: every player has a stat called "Stat". It is 3. To do something roll d6 and roll higher than your Stat. Fun, eh?
Stat is OP! It needs a nerf. I think 2 is a more balanced value, don't you agree?
 

Have you really noticed these things, or are you just guessing by looking at what you're reading? Because in actual game play, I'm not noticing that scenario at all. I guess it comes down to who you play with.

It's certainly where we noticed it start to break down. It's the point where attack bonuses start to go off the bottom of the die. Where you first get +9, +10, and +11 to hit.

Look at it like this:

At level 1, you have +2 Proficiency, +3 Ability for a total of +5.

At level 9, you have +4 Proficiency, +5 Ability for a total of +9.

At level 20, you have +6 Proficiency, +5 Ability for a total of +11.

Levels 1-10, you get +4. Levels 11-20, you get +2. You get the lion's share of your attack bonus from 1-10.

Additionally, IMX (including official modules), you start to find +1 weapons about level 4-7, +2 weapons about level 8-12, and +3 weapons about level 13-16. Yeah, yeah, "magic items are not assumed blah blah blah." Show me a level 10 Fighter with a mundane weapon and I'll show you a player who thinks he or she is getting the short end. Magic items aren't assumed in design, but magic items happen in real games and it's one of the most common rewards in nearly every campaign.

Thus, in the games that I've played, most 10th level characters have an attack bonus of +10 or +11. The maximum attack bonus in the game is +14 (without some ability or effect that lets you break 20 ability score, +6 proficiency, or a +3 weapon bonus). When you're at +11, you hit AC 13 on a 2. You hit AC 18 on a 7. Once you get to about level 10, characters just hit all the time on every attack. That's what they do.

On an Archer with Sharpshooter, you're looking at a base ranged attack bonus of +11 by level 9, but more likely you've got an attack bonus of +12 from a +1 weapon. With a +12, you hit AC 14 and below on a 2, and you can either deal 1d8+6 95% of the time (9.975 avg damage) or 1d8+16 70% of the time (14.35 avg damage). Against AC 18, you're looking at regular damage 75% of the time (7.875 avg) or Sharpshooter damage 50% of the time (10.25 avg). You know what the breaking point is where you should stop using Sharpshooter? AC 22. You know how many monsters in the Monster Manual have an AC of 22 or higher? 8. There's six Ancient Dragons (black, blue, bronze, gold, red, silver), the Empyrean, and the Tarrasque (the only one above AC 22). It doesn't matter if you've got a +1 heavy crossbow, either. The breaking point is still AC 22. If you couldn't optimize your stats and only have a +4, or if you somehow never got a +1 weapon, then the breaking point is instead AC 21 (which adds green and copper Ancient Dragons, as well as Solars).

So, at level 9 Archer with Archery style, the Sharpshooter feat, and either optimized stats or a magic weapon should use -5/+10 on essentially everything in every combat. That's the mathematically correct option.

Now, if you've got some non-weapon damage to add in, you might want to attack without Sharpshooter -- as far as I recall the feat says ,"before you attack," and not, "before you take the Attack action" -- so you can freely switch between regular and Sharpshooter as needs be.

This is why I would rather Sharpshooter said something like, "Black Arrow: Your ranged weapon attacks ignore all types of damage resistance," or, "Sniper: Your ranged weapon attacks have an extreme range category that extends to double the weapon's normal maximum range. You have disadvantage against targets at extreme range." Either option would be preferable.

GWM is actually less abusive than Sharpshooter, because there's no attack bonus equivalent for Archery style, because heavy weapon style increases the weapon's damage (2d6 goes from 7 to 8.33), and because heavy weapons deal more damage than ranged weapons do in general. That throws the math back towards not using -5/+10 a bit more. Still, I'd rather that feat said, "You deal 1d6 additional damage to creatures one or more size categories larger than you." I miss two-handed swords dealing 3d6 against Ogres.
 

Corwin

Explorer
On an Archer with Sharpshooter, you're looking at a base ranged attack bonus of +11 by level 9, but more likely you've got an attack bonus of +12 from a +1 weapon. With a +12, you hit AC 14 and below on a 2, and you can either deal 1d8+6 95% of the time (9.975 avg damage) or 1d8+16 70% of the time (14.35 avg damage).
So in all likelihood, best case scenario (fully optimized *and* a magic weapon), the archer spent two feats to do an extra 4-and-a-half-ish damage per hit? And, as you admit later, with higher AC targets that bonus drops considerably? That's it? That's what all the hullabaloo is about? An average of around +4 damage coming from a considerable resource expenditure?

Okay... What's the *real* problem here? Is it numbers envy? It's numbers envy, isn't it?
 

bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller
The DM's job is to build the world, play the NPCs, and adjudicate uncertainty. There actually is a sidebar in this edition, specifically calling out metagaming as inappropriate and to be avoided.

Can you reference the page of the sidebar that says a DM shouldn't metagame?
 

mflayermonk

First Post
Can you just scrap the standard damage resistance and instead change it to damage resistance vs piercing (magic does not overcome). It does not change the CR of the monster.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
So in all likelihood, best case scenario (fully optimized *and* a magic weapon), the archer spent two feats to do an extra 4-and-a-half-ish damage per hit? And, as you admit later, with higher AC targets that bonus drops considerably? That's it? That's what all the hullabaloo is about? An average of around +4 damage coming from a considerable resource expenditure?

Okay... What's the *real* problem here? Is it numbers envy? It's numbers envy, isn't it?

In practice its more like 7 and/or you end up in an arms race vs the DM. They up the AC of opponents you spend more resources buffing (bless + advantage).

When you are better off casting bless of scorching ray for example at least in terms of damage. BY level 5 or so you can just drop bless or faerie fire if you want every combat and not run out of spell slots (maybe a fireball).

Froim a min/max point of view some spells in 5E are so good you just tend to uise them over and over again, Sorcerers and Warlocks tend to rock because of this you do not need versatility (as long as someone else in the party can cover it).
 


smbakeresq

Explorer
To be a DM you need to know how players build their characters. DM also requires better thinking then is in MM, the key to overcoming the players inherent advantages is to use the rules, especially advantage to greater effect then the players can.

Archery style is well known by some, they do get mad when you drop the Fog Cloud over them. Players really get mad when they run into the Storm Giant archer using those same feats.

A creature with blindsense or tremor sense wont rely on darkness, they will rely on darkness and haze. Try gelatinous cubes in a dark hazy room, or under a wooden floor which they eat through when they sense creatures walking on it. The good natured players have no problems.

Mobs are challenges if you use them right. I find that having them not all go on same initiative count greatly increases difficulty. For example you can have 5 groups of 4, some can use help action so next group all attacks with advantage. If proper grapping rules are in place then you can also just overbear characters, as a simple use just have the help action grant advantage on the grappling checks. The help action can also be used to help a monster prone a character and then the rest to swarm him, a player fighting from the ground will perk up and get excited. The BBEG should always have minions granting him advantage.

The standard creatures need help to get them after the players.

The players will always have an AC advantage, so you just have to grind them out, when players lose HP they get excited.

The lack of good grapple and or grab rules help the players. It used to be a giant could grapple you and get a bonus for str and just for its size, so they were scary. not so much anymore
 

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