Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[keterys]

How do you get a 13 for your wisdom modifier?

I'm assuming it's more like a 7 wis modifier, +4 enhancement to weapon, +2 feat bonus, or something similar.

 

[Goumindong]

I'm assuming it's more like a 7 wis modifier, +4 enhancement to weapon, +2 feat bonus, or something similar.

I always forget to add weapon enhancement to damage on ongoing spell damage.

 

[Marshall]

Nah. Prior to Firestorm, the Cleric's options just don't measure up. Heroic nuking is just a no-go for the Cleric. Fire Storm, Astral Storm, and Sacred Word are certainly formidable dailies, but they ARE dailies, and the Cleric has only a limited option for boosting or recovering them. They HAVE to be potent because there's not much else you can do with them.

Thats the point. As a Cleric you shouldnt be doing them. If WotC wants to design a Divine Controller class then these are the types of powers that should be there.

But even if they do decide to go that route, they shoudnt vastly outclass the powers of the other class(es) in the controller role.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Mongolia Jones:
This points to one of the weaknesses of the Laser Cleric - he's action conflicted. He wants to heal, but he also wants to maintain Firestorm. What do you do?

You use your move action for a minor and do both?

 

[Mongolia Jones]

Nono. That's not what I meant. I meant we expend all encounter powers and 1 daily for each of 2 Encounters. Obviously, you can't use the same daily for those two encounters. This simulates the exhaustion of dailies as the day wears on. You can use Astral Storm only once a day, after all.

I understood what you meant originally, we basically run two separate encounter battles that take place in a single day. Therefore, daily attacks will be used only once between the two battles, unless you have an ability (like the archmage) that gets around that.

That's not correct at all. It says, "When you damage an opponent with a power, you deal damage to the target equal to the damage you dealt yourself."

When you hit with a power twice [such as with Prismatic Spray], you damage an opponent twice and each of those is an instance of damaging an opponent with a power.

Bolstering Blood makes no mention that it will inflict damage based on how many times a power hits or damages an opponent. It's only requirement is that the power damages a target.

It doesn't matter that the power hits a million times, two times or misses completely. As long as the power, in one fashion or another, causes damage, you can apply the Bolstering Blood to each target you damaged.

Sneak Attack is different to Bolstering Blood in that SA requires a "hit", BB does not require any "hit" of any kind.

Sneak Attack is the same as Bolstering Blood in that their damage is independent of the damage roll. In other words both SA and BB do not in any way increase the inherent damaging power of the attack or power that they are associated with at the time that they are used. SA and BB are "powers" in their own right that can cause damage on their own. Unlike an ability score of 28, a +5 weapon, or the feat Burning Blizzard, all of which do increase the inherent damage potential of the powers that they are associated with.

You can think of BB as special interrupt power that goes off when all the right criteria are met and causes damage of 1d10 or 2d10. The same can be done for any of the strikers extra damaging features.

A closer analysis of damage enhancements
When you look at any item, ability, or power that increases damage, it's very important to read the text and see in what way the enhancement is applied.

Examples of damage enhancements:
>Kensai Mastery: +4 unnamed "bonus to damage rolls" (PHB pg 87)
>Astral Fire feat: +1, +2 or +3 feat "bonus to damage rolls" (PHB pg 193)
>+3 Flameburst Longbow "adds +3 to all attack and damage rolls" (PHB 232)

There isn't any mention for a "damage roll" anywhere in the Bolstering Blood description. It is a power that causes damage in it's own right (once the right criteria are met) and therefore does not increase any power's damage potential in the short or long term.

[Bolstering Blood] doesn't specify that you only apply the damage once a round, which is specified in other powers that are limited in just such a fashion, such as Sneak Attack.

Bolstering Blood also doesn't specify that you can't summon 20 dancing girls in bikinis when you cause extra damage as well.

Powers like Meteor Swarm and Black Fire don't specify that they are limited to 1 round either. Just because a power specifically doesn't specify that you can't do something does mean that you can do it.

It is just the opposite of your thinking on this matter. It is a given that powers only run once or once a round. Powers that run for more are specified in a save or else, minor action usage, end of encounter or 5 minutes duration.

Whats more, the devs made an extra effort to mention, that for Sneak Attack, it's to be limited to "once a round." Just in the same way that the devs limited Bolstering Blood to "once per turn". The devs made these special mentions so as to make sure players are clear not to abuse these powers. Unfortunately Bolstering Blood is not written clear enough for some people to understand this limitation even though it was clear to me the first time I read it.

Another perspective: Envisioning Bolstering Blood in action
DMs and player's sometimes try to grasp what a power's or ability's intention is by imagining how it works. This can help determine how to use the power in game terms.

Lets look at Sneak Attack, it's an especially easy power to imagine because most of us have played 3e and had enough real gaming experience with it.

Example of Sneak Attack:
Frank the fighter desperately tries to keep an enraged troll focused on himself as Randy the rogue carefully shifts around the beast looking for an opening. Frank hits the troll once, it's only a superficial wound, but he taunts and laughs at the troll enraging the beast which causes it to focus fully on the fighter. This in turn helps Randy position himself better. Randy finds an opening in the sickly green hide, and the rogue acts quickly. The rogue's dagger hits, but this time the dagger sinks especially deep due to the fact that he was able to get a good position on the beast.

Now an example of Bolstering Blood:
Willy the wizard is in a desperate situation. He is facing off against three birdlike demons quickly approaching his location. The "Vrock" are known to tear flesh from bone with unnaturally sharp claws while the victim is still alive. Willy is desperate and has to act now. He focuses and calls forth a blast of elemental cold; it's a cold thats so cold it can literally freeze opponents in their tracks.

As Willy readies to cast the spell, the "Vrock" seem to lurch toward the wizard. This startles Willy, and as he was trained in the ways of the Blood Mage, the frightened wizard howls in pain just as he purposely inflicts a wound on himself as he casts the spell!

A vortex of cold rushes out of Willies outstretched hand, engulfing the three demons. The demons reel from the extreme cold, but theres more, because of with wizard's self-inflicted wound, he was able to immediately transfer the exact same pain he suffered, psychically, to each of the three demons as if he had wounded them individually.

Willy was able to stop cold two of the demons. But one of the birdlike horrors is still moving, albeit too slowly to catch the now fleeing wizard...

In conclusion, Bolstering Blood is a power:
1. that can only be used once per turn.
2. where you choose to damage yourself a minor or severe wound.
3. that must be used as a free action just prior to casting a spell.
4. that psychically damages targets the same wound you caused yourself as long as the spell itself was able to cause any kind of damage on its own.

Note that it is important to note the exact criteria for BB to take effect. Criteria: "When the power you use damages a target, you deal extra psychic damage equal to the damage you dealt to yourself."

It 's pretty darn clear....
1. BB doesn't care if you "hit" or "miss".
2. BB doesn't care if you damage/"hit" thrice/twice/once or "miss" for half.
3. BB doesn't add directly to any damage roll, therefore it doesn't add to the damage potential/power of the spell.
4. BB doesn't do any additional psychic damage-transfer beyond the initial casting of the spell (or else it would say so.)


Sorry for being repetitive and long winded here, but since the description wasn't clear enough for some, I wanted to be crystal clear.

 

[Mongolia Jones]

That's reasonable. 5 rounds seems too many, I think, especially for a Cleric, since he'll typically have better things to do with minor actions - like use his excellent Healing Word class feature.

You do as you think is best, but I think it's bad for the Cleric to be ignoring healing - he might as well just throw away that power. Shame.

Tell you what, I'll require that that my cleric use his healing word thrice per encounter (using up 3x minor actions), the maximum he can use it. As a matter of fact, I'll track the total healing potential through the use of all the clerics powers, standards and minors throughout the whole fight.

I won't leave my party members wanting, I'm a cleric that can blast better than a wizard and heal everyone all at the same time.

I will have my cake and eat it too...

By my estimates, even high level combats shouldn't be lasting much longer than 6 rounds. Postulating 5 rounds is way too much.

Well then lets agree to suspend disbelief then and imagine that our battles take 6 to 10 rounds (as long as we have encounters, dailies to burn).

Although I do think some high level battles will in fact take more than 6 rounds, but that's just me.

Well, if you really want to hear the cheese, this is how it works. It's been asked of CustServ and all we got were shocked gasps of astonishment:

Blood Pulse damages an enemy every time he leaves a sqaure. A Large opponent leaves 2 squares every time he's moved horizontally, and 3 squares every time he's moved diagonally. Each instance does damage - 1d6, but gets +2d10 also when we add in Bolstering Blood.

Thus, the combination damages an opponent 14.5 points for every square it leaves. I can hear the gasp of horror already.

Yes, you can kill Orcus with this. On round 1.

If you apply the same techniques I used for the analysis Bolstering Blood for Blood Pulse you should be able to answer your own question about the proper way to use the power.

What do you think the devs were thinking when they made the power?
How would you write it to be more clear?
How would DMs you know allow the power to work?

In the end if you really think this "cheese" is something that your war wizard needs to beat my cleric, then go ahead, it's all yours.

Note that my cleric will not use or accept any "cheese" at all, thank you very much.

 

[Goumindong]

Bolstering Blood makes no mention that it will inflict damage based on how many times a power hits or damages an opponent. It's only requirement is that the power damages a target.

It doesn't matter that the power hits a million times, two times or misses completely. As long as the power, in one fashion or another, causes damage, you can apply the Bolstering Blood to each target you damaged.

To start:

Bolstering blood deals its damage when the power deals damage. So you ask yourself "when does the power deal damage". If the power deals damage twice, then the "when" is "twice, after these different hits" if the power deals damage three times the "when" is "three times after these different hits. Its the same logic that you use to add your weapon enhancement bonus to multiple damage rolls originating from the same power and at the constant damage effect of fire storm

When you bolster a prismatic beam it adds the 2d10 damage roll to the ref and fort portions and to both the "save ends" effects. Just as if you had a +4 wand adding that damage.(except when the power deals damage later it would also apply)

I will get to the rest later.

There isn't any mention for a "damage roll" anywhere in the Bolstering Blood description. It is a power that causes damage in it's own right (once the right criteria are met) and therefore does not increase any power's damage potential in the short or long term.

Man What? It increase the damage as a FREE ACTION (while depleting no explicit resources) of any power its used in conjunction with by 2d10 each time the power does damage! What do you mean it doesn't increase any power's damage potential in the short or long term?

Bolstering Blood also doesn't specify that you can't summon 20 dancing girls in bikinis when you cause extra damage as well.

Powers like Meteor Swarm and Black Fire don't specify that they are limited to 1 round either. Just because a power specifically doesn't specify that you can't do something does mean that you can do it.

It is just the opposite of your thinking on this matter. It is a given that powers only run once or once a round. Powers that run for more are specified in a save or else, minor action usage, end of encounter or 5 minutes duration.

Bolstering Blood is not a power. You do not select it as a power it takes no action to achieve, it does not have a level... It works just like the wizards orb specialization which works for multiple rounds on any effect.

It works on the power for as long as the power applies, just like every other ability in the game that is applied to a power. If the power persists and keeps doing damage the bolstering persists and keeps doing damage.

Whats more, the devs made an extra effort to mention, that for Sneak Attack, it's to be limited to "once a round." Just in the same way that the devs limited Bolstering Blood to "once per turn". The devs made these special mentions so as to make sure players are clear not to abuse these powers. Unfortunately Bolstering Blood is not written clear enough for some people to understand this limitation even though it was clear to me the first time I read it.

The "once per turn" is not a limitation on how often you apply the damage. The "once per turn" is a limitation on how often you can use the bolster so that you do not bolster a blood pulse, action point, then bolster a thunderwave, get granted a standard action from your warlord(using an item) and then bolster an evard's black tentacles. But bolstering any one of those is perfectly fine.

 

[Mongolia Jones]

Another point about Bolstering Blood.

When a power "misses" and does half damage, Bolstering Blood still does it's full damage (instead of being halved with the damage roll).

 

[Mongolia Jones]

To start:

Bolstering blood deals its damage when the power deals damage. So you ask yourself "when does the power deal damage". If the power deals damage twice, then the "when" is "twice, after these different hits" if the power deals damage three times the "when" is "three times after these different hits. Its the same logic that you use to add your weapon enhancement bonus to multiple damage rolls originating from the same power and at the constant damage effect of fire storm

Wrong.

There is no game mechanic that determines how many times a power deals damage.

How many times can you "damage" a target with a single to-hit attack roll?

Does a Blade Barrier damage a target with a single swipe or many little cuts and stabs?

Does Frostburn (lvl 13 wizard) damage two times due to cold and fire components?

Does a Blood Pulse damage each time you move a target 1 square distance?

Is a sneak attack (a separate damage roll to the attack roll it's associated with) a second damage?

If your argument is that Bolstering Blood damages each time you roll a damage roll, you would be incorrect. Thats NOT how it works. Bolstering Blood does NOT add to any damage rolls.

Bolstering Blood is like Sneak Attack, these are extra damages that are tacked onto the spell or attack damages not to the damage roll itself.

When you bolster a prismatic beam it adds the 2d10 damage roll to the ref and fort portions and to both the "save ends" effects. Just as if you had a +4 wand adding that damage.(except when the power deals damage later it would also apply)

Again, Bolstering Blood is NOT AN ENHANCEMENT TO DAMAGE ROLLS. A +4 wand does directly add to damage rolls. They are different beasts altogether.

Secondly, the "save ends" effects are considered 'ongoing damage', and nothing gets added to that damage. EVER.

Man What? It increase the damage as a FREE ACTION (while depleting no explicit resources) of any power its used in conjunction with by 2d10 each time the power does damage! What do you mean it doesn't increase any power's damage potential in the short or long term?

Again for the upteenth time, Bolstering Blood does not add to damage rolls. If you hit for half damage with a power, BB will still cause full damage because the criteria "damages target" was met. Therefore it is independent of the damage roll.

You can roll 500 damage rolls with a single power, but you will still only apply one Bolstering Blood wound.

Bolstering Blood says you cause damage if you "damage the target"... not for "each time you damage the target"

Bolstering Blood is not a power. You do not select it as a power it takes no action to achieve, it does not have a level... It works just like the wizards orb specialization which works for multiple rounds on any effect.

Sorry, it's a "Paragon Path feature", same difference. Path features act similar or identical to powers in some cases.

It works on the power for as long as the power applies, just like every other ability in the game that is applied to a power. If the power persists and keeps doing damage the bolstering persists and keeps doing damage.

No it doesn't. Read above. I've stated why it doesn't numerous times.

The "once per turn" is not a limitation on how often you apply the damage. The "once per turn" is a limitation on how often you can use the bolster so that you do not bolster a blood pulse, action point, then bolster a thunderwave, get granted a standard action from your warlord(using an item) and then bolster an evard's black tentacles. But bolstering any one of those is perfectly fine.

Yes but everything... and I mean EVERYTHING... that's supposed to work more than one round says so.

Bolstering Blood does not say anything of the sort.

Magic items and feats are different because they specifically say "add to damage rolls."

You are reading things into Bolstering Blood which are not there. The feature is simple, if you damage the target with a power, you do 2d10 damage, you don't damage the target, you don't add 2d10 damage.

Don't make it into something it's not.

 

[Goumindong]

There is no game mechanic that determines how many times a power deals damage.

Yes there is, its the "definition of the power". Maybe you should read some of them.

Does a Blade Barrier damage a target with a single swipe or many little cuts and stabs?

No, how many hit sections does the power have? What does the effect describe?

If your argument is that Bolstering Blood damages each time you roll a damage roll, you would be incorrect. Thats NOT how it works. Bolstering Blood does NOT add to any damage rolls.

Its a good think I am not arguing that. Bolstering Blood adds its damage whenever the power does damage.

So just figure out when the power does damage. Prismatic Beam/Spray does damage twice on the first round, one for each hit. So it gets +4d10 on the first round. And on the second round it deals damage twice....

Bolstering Blood is like Sneak Attack, these are extra damages that are tacked onto the spell or attack damages not to the damage roll itself.

how about you actually read sneak attack. The only reason that rogues do not add sneak attack damage to every single hit they put down is because Sneak Attack specifically says they cannot. Sneak attack is added to a one successful hit/round(after hits have been rollled) and not to a power.

Again, Bolstering Blood is NOT AN ENHANCEMENT TO DAMAGE ROLLS. A +4 wand does directly add to damage rolls. They are different beasts altogether.

Secondly, the "save ends" effects are considered 'ongoing damage', and nothing gets added to that damage. EVER.

So when ongoing damage deals damage its not actually dealing damage? Oh wait, no its dealing damage and so qualifies for "when the power deals damage".

Its very simple, did they take damage? Yes? Was the damage from the power that was bolstered? Yes? Add the result of the 2d10 roll that you applied to bolster the spell.

Again for the upteenth time, Bolstering Blood does not add to damage rolls. If you hit for half damage with a power, BB will still cause full damage because the criteria "damages target" was met. Therefore it is independent of the damage roll.

You can roll 500 damage rolls with a single power, but you will still only apply one Bolstering Blood wound.

Bolstering Blood says you cause damage if you "damage the target"... not for "each time you damage the target"

Uhhh, actually it does, its right there in the text of the power. "when you damage a target".

When do you apply damage? "when you damage a target with the power". If you damage a target with the power twice what is the answer to "when you damage a target with the power"? Twice, you damaged a target twice, once on each hit.

So when do you apply damage? When you damaged a target, which was twice, once for each hit.

So you apply damage twice if you deal damage twice.

Sorry, it's a "Paragon Path feature", same difference. Path features act similar or identical to powers in some cases.

No they do not. Unless they say they do, they do not. All powers and properties that have durations shorter than "all the time" say so explicitly. Bolstering Blood is very explicit in its duration, which is the duration of the power it is used for.

No it doesn't. Read above. I've stated why it doesn't numerous times.

Just because you say it is true does not make it so. You need a cogent argument to get anywhere near that, and you have none.

Yes but everything... and I mean EVERYTHING... that's supposed to work more than one round says so.

Lord, do you even read what people write? In the post you are quoting a just gave you an example of a power that works more than one round without explicitly saying so. You are confusing a rule about powers with a rule about abilities. Specifically that powers are instantaneous unless otherwise described

But i guess corellions implement only works once ever and that spiral tower action only gives you an action point till the end of your turn

You are reading things into Bolstering Blood which are not there. The feature is simple, if you damage the target with a power, you do 2d10 damage, you don't damage the target, you don't add 2d10 damage.

Yes that part is very simple. Which is why I am so perplexed at how you are able to read into the power that this can only happen once ever and does not extend the duration of the power [even when it implicitly says it does and all other abilities work in the same way] and does not apply whenever the power does damage as the power says it does.