Wierd Pete's lament in KODT #116 - is it true???

[Flexor the Mighty!]

My bad. I'm overreacting when it's revealed, early on, that the undead master plan is:
[sblock="the sekrit undead master plan"]Engineer a new plague that will wipe out the Scourge and all life on Azeroth, including the rest of the Horde[/sblock]

That is only evil if you aren't Undead.

 

[WayneLigon]

RPGs suffer from a weird, collective delusion that things were so much better 20 years ago. It's true that there were far more mid-tier companies back then, but nobody made a lot of money off RPGs even in the 1980s. I've read interviews with people like Greg Stafford who state that, even at the "height" of RPG mania, they were still making subsistence level wages.

The idea of saying that 'there were far more mid-tier companies back then' and yet calling the idea that we were better off then a 'delusion' just totally escapes me.

If Stafford was making subsistence level wages, then that's what I'd expect from being a writer and designer in a non-mainstream hobby.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Well, as a retailer I can say that yes, initially WoW, almost completely by itself, was hurting tabletop RPG sales... big time. The sky did seem to be falling and many a retailer went out of business because of the popularity of video games like WoW and the consoles. However, over the last year sales have started to bottom out, reach a low level point and started to go up again on some core materials as retailers have learned to balance. The problem is that it is hard to try new games etc. without getting totally burnt because the interest isn't there like it used to be. There was a time when a new game from White Wolf would have sold. Arcana Evolved didn't do well for us though when it was initially released as Arcana Unearthed it sold pretty well. Midnight 2e flopped in our store. Now only recognizable products seem to be selling liek D&D, WoD, Shadowrun, M&M, and the Buffy/Angel games. This is anecdotal at best for my store but similar comments have been made in the ICV2 Retailer Guide to Games and Game Trade Magazine... The future is looking brighter for the big guns, but it isn't a good time to start a new RPG company.

Why is WoW to blame for those, though?

White Wolf's change from OWoD to NWoD has been controversial among fans, even years later, especially with the sometimes dramatic changes to the game lines.

AE was a higher priced reprint (with a supplement folded in, along with new materials) of a book that had come out relatively recently. Many of those enjoyed AU already had Diamond Throne, diminishing the value of AE somewhat.

Did Midnight ever burn up the sales charts? A second edition of a critical hit that was a modest sale success doesn't seem like it's automatically destined for commercial breakthrough to me, right or wrong.

What's the link with WoW? That people found something better to spend their money on than new editions of games they felt they had already purchased? If that's the case, I don't think the blame lies with Blizzard Entertainment ...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That is only evil if you aren't Undead.

Back, back into your unquiet grave!

 

[RyanD]

Is it true? Are sales of tabletop products dropping, and if so is it because of mmorpgs or other computer based games?

Demonstrably factual in all respects.

 

[Reynard]

Demonstrably factual in all respects.

I'd be interested in seeing that demonstration.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

If anything I would think that the availablity of MMORPGs has sparked an interest in the more "quaint" habit of playing with pen and paper.

I know that I have helped introduce one of the guildmasters of my old World of Warcraft guild to tabletop D&D, and I'm pretty sure I could get some of the other people I know on there playing if we were geographically closer.

I don't know if playing computer games inspired by D&D is all there is to it - her boyfriend and co-guildmaster was my fiancee's former D&D DM, which is why my fiancee and I were in that guild - but it's a data point. I don't know any MMO gamers who sneer at tabletop gaming - I think the biggest problem is that they tend to be ignorant of our hobby's existence, which is why I'm happy when I see advertisements for D&D in computer and video game magazines.

 

[mearls]

The idea of saying that 'there were far more mid-tier companies back then' and yet calling the idea that we were better off then a 'delusion' just totally escapes me.

If Stafford was making subsistence level wages, then that's what I'd expect from being a writer and designer in a non-mainstream hobby.

Stafford was also one of the most successful of those designers and worked for one of the most successful companies. That leaves open the question of how many of the other companies out there survived on non-RPG stuff or were bleeding money.

The number of companies present in the "industry" has no bearing on the quality of games released.

 

[teitan]

Why is WoW to blame for those, though?

White Wolf's change from OWoD to NWoD has been controversial among fans, even years later, especially with the sometimes dramatic changes to the game lines.

AE was a higher priced reprint (with a supplement folded in, along with new materials) of a book that had come out relatively recently. Many of those enjoyed AU already had Diamond Throne, diminishing the value of AE somewhat.

Did Midnight ever burn up the sales charts? A second edition of a critical hit that was a modest sale success doesn't seem like it's automatically destined for commercial breakthrough to me, right or wrong.

What's the link with WoW? That people found something better to spend their money on than new editions of games they felt they had already purchased? If that's the case, I don't think the blame lies with Blizzard Entertainment ...

WoW took away from table top gaming in the same way that Magic: The Gathering took away from the table top RPG audience. It appealed to a broadbase of people but primarily appeals to role players. The people who play WoW are the target audience of games like D&D or WoD and when WoW is pulling those people away then the target audience isn't there. They aren't going out looking for new experiences etc. Its affecting the gaming hobby industry as a whole, not just the tabletop RPG market. I believe Ryan laid out what was going on a year ago when Blizzard announced their 6 million user base. It has also been all over the industry newsletters, like ICV2 Guide to Games and Game Trade Magazine.

As to games like Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, the game's sales demonstrably diminished in my own store, as I said, it was anecdotal.

I think the cost of gaming products, which have rapidly increased since the release of D&D3e, though not the fault of D&D3e by any means, have really turned off a lot of the customer base that have in turn gone to video games. My own experience with video gamers trying out table top games is the lack of dramatic visual effects like a video game possesses and the cost, thinking being "I've already got a computer and WoW is 30 bucks and 16 bucks a month whereas a tabletop game is 40-50 dollar buy in and I have to get all these other supplements at 30 bucks each" because there is a perception that the supplements are essential to "mastering" the game. This isn't the hobby companies fault, a similar thinking occurs with old Magic players who refuse to buy the expansions because they "put out too many and its hard to keep up". Another aspect is the "its only a book" when people see the price tag and looking at gaming prices just five years ago vs. today the price increase has been huge whereas the books were pretty steady at about 20 bucks for years and 30 for a hardcover and the D&D books were even cheaper compared to the indy stuff. WOTC have managed to keep their prices down but how long is that going to last? I see more and more 34.95 priced books on the horizon vs. the 30 dollar standard they've been able to maintain for years. WoW also has an advantage over books in that they are releasing the first expansion in its two year plus history in a few weeks or so. Part of what has made WoW so successful has been the lack of expansions and thusly the low cost of playing it.

Now I know that supplements aren't essential. You can get by on just the core books for D&D and WoD with the core monster books very well, for years and years even because they have a tool kit nature but that isn't the perception video gamers get and it isn't a perception that the RPG companies can rebutt or they'll lose their sales...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I know that I have helped introduce one of the guildmasters of my old World of Warcraft guild to tabletop D&D, and I'm pretty sure I could get some of the other people I know on there playing if we were geographically closer.

A number of my EQ1/CoH/WoW friends are now playing pbp D&D with me, and more want to, but I can only DM so many at a time and keep my job.

Every MMORPG message board is full of people who either play or are interested in D&D, though.