Will the WOTC Gametable return or is it dead forever?

[darjr]

It's part of the business because people accept it as part of the business. A sad commentary on our modern world, but true. If you hold a programmer to a timeline, a timeline that should be honestly and realistically communicated from the programmer to the customer in the first place, and they don't complete the project on time, they should be fired and a new programmer found - period. If people accept unrealistic timelines and sub-standard performance (not accomplishing a task on time is sub-standard performance) then lateness in the software industry will continue to be an endemic problem. Demand quality, on-time, and penalize programmers for the lack of those very things, and the only programmers that will continue to get work and make a living will be those who provide quality digital products in a timely manner.

Ah, I see. A simple answer to a complex problem. Why didn't anyone else think of it first?

 

[El Mahdi]

Ah, I see. A simple answer to a complex problem. Why didn't anyone else think of it first?

Nope! Not Simple.

The Right thing to do isn't always simple, doesn't make it any less Right.

And I didn't think of it first. It's been true ever since man became able to reason.

The Right Way isn't always easy, but it will always be the best.

 

[Umbran]

Demand quality, on-time, and penalize programmers for the lack of those very things, and the only programmers that will continue to get work and make a living will be those who provide quality digital products in a timely manner.

It is easy to provide quality products (digital or otherwise) in a timely manner if you're doing repetitive, well-known and well-understood tasks in a well-known, well-understood situation.

Unfortunately, most software development isn't like that.

Ask someone who does house construction. When you have a set of plans, the first house you build with it runs over schedule, over budget, and has problems. As they build more houses from the same set of plans, what they have learned from previous work applies, and improves performance.

In general, in software development, you're always working on the first house. Nobody wants a copy of old software, they want new software, new features, new UI, all cutting edge. The programmer typically doesn't have enough information to give really solid estimates at the start of a project.

There are techniques for manage this, but don't make it sound easy. You need above standard managers and programmers to get things to come in on a timeline set early in the project. That's the nature of the work, not a failing onf hte programmers.

 

[darjr]

Nope! Not Simple.

The Right thing to do isn't always simple, doesn't make it any less Right.

And I didn't think of it first. It's been true ever since man became able to reason.

The Right Way isn't always easy, but it will always be the best.

And yet, and yet, the magic Shangri La of perfect software every time is, unachievable? How could this be?

 

[renau1g]

I haven't given WotC the benefit of the doubt where promised software is concerned since the great MAster Tools Vaporware debacle.

When they deliver on promised software, I'll start giving them the benefit of the doubt again.

Agreed.

 

[kenmarable]

It's part of the business because people accept it as part of the business. A sad commentary on our modern world, but true. If you hold a programmer to a timeline, a timeline that should be honestly and realistically communicated from the programmer to the customer in the first place, and they don't complete the project on time, they should be fired and a new programmer found - period.

Uh... where is the honestly and realistically communicating the needs from the customer to the programmer? Oh, and where is the honestly and realistically handling the customer you normally deal with being re-assigned and having a new customer with entirely different opinions? On and on and on. This isn't a one way street here.

The start of the downfall of that web company I worked for? Ford's tire problems because one factory of one tiremaker cut corners and put out dangerous tires. That controversy and loss of customer confidence (with good reason) crippled Ford sales, and being our #2 client at the time, in the span of 1 month, 30% of our business just vanished into thin air. So another vendor that our client dealt with led to the loss of almost a third of our business. I don't want to get political or anything, but just point out from my experience, these services aren't simple.

We've had two companies completely fold while we were actively developing for them. I'd say well over half the time, our main contact on the start of the project was not our main contact by the end. And the most common factor for going over budget and missing a deadline in that company - the customer changing their mind and/or not realizing everything they really needed to have done.

Of course in all of those cases, we the vendor/programmers could have handled it better, but a simplistic "if you can't meet the deadline, you don't deserve our business" just doesn't mesh with the complexities programmers face. Now I don't want to presume anything about you, but I know that if I didn't actually have experience "in the trenches" so to speak, I'd have no idea how painfully ugly and complex getting a piece of software done can be.

It is easy to provide quality products (digital or otherwise) in a timely manner if you're doing repetitive, well-known and well-understood tasks in a well-known, well-understood situation.

Unfortunately, most software development isn't like that.
(snip)

Ding! Let me guess, you actually work as a programmer or in the IT industry?


Lastly, my general opinion on the lateness of the DDI features is yes, I'm disappointed and wished they would have been done (although not too disappointed personally, because I have very little interest in the VTT and Visualizer). Yes, if I recall posting probably right here at EN World months before 4e's launch my skepticism that their plans would actually work - and I'm not genius, so the failures were pretty easy to see coming a long ways out. However, maybe it's my temperament, but I just can't find the righteous indignation others find in not having these tools.

Reminds me of a YouTube video my wife showed me this morning of someone talking to Conan O'Brien (should've checked who it was). He said on a recent flight they had brand new high speed internet. He was just amazed watching videos and checking email in flight. Then the service dropped and the captain apologized that it wasn't working. They guy next to him said, "This is bull----." He was amazed at the sense of entitlement this guy had for something he didn't even knew existed 10 minutes ago.

Yes, it's disappointing and unfortunately not surprising. Is it worth outrage that promises in advertising copy were broken? No. If that were true, I'd have a stern discussion with some spammers about what really counts as "enhancement". Plus, I still don't see super models flocking to me despite all the diet cola and new hair gels I've used.

 

[El Mahdi]

It is easy to provide quality products (digital or otherwise) in a timely manner if you're doing repetitive, well-known and well-understood tasks in a well-known, well-understood situation.

Unfortunately, most software development isn't like that.

Ask someone who does house construction. When you have a set of plans, the first house you build with it runs over schedule, over budget, and has problems. As they build more houses from the same set of plans, what they have learned from previous work applies, and improves performance.

In general, in software development, you're always working on the first house. Nobody wants a copy of old software, they want new software, new features, new UI, all cutting edge. The programmer typically doesn't have enough information to give really solid estimates at the start of a project.

There are techniques for manage this, but don't make it sound easy. You need above standard managers and programmers to get things to come in on a timeline set early in the project. That's the nature of the work, not a failing onf hte programmers.

I agree 100%.

And again, I do not think it's easy. Don't mistake a simple explanation as a statement of ease of application. After 17 years as an NCO, I know full well that doing something right is rarely easy. However, it doesn't make it any less important.

However, by your own estimation it requires above standard managers and programmers. I think the fact that the products have not, and are not, being provided in a timely manner says exactly what kind of managers and programmers that WoTC was dealing with (well, might or might not indicate what kind of programmers). Hopefully they have rectified this problem (the layoffs and targeted hirings at least makes it seem they've attempted this).

You are also absoluely right that I can't necessarily lay this at the feet of the programmers. I'm sure you're right in that programmers do not typically have enough information at the beginning of a project to give an accurate timeline. But, they do have the ability to give a general timeline, and inform those they work for on what problems can typically hold up projects of this sort. Whether this was accurately provided by WoTC programmers at the start of this project or not, I guess only WoTC knows. But no matter what, managers in charge of such a project had better make sure they are sufficiently educated and informed in these types of projects, and not give unrealistic representations of how long such a project will take (you know, so your company doesn't spend 1 1/2 years advertising and marketing products you have no possible way of delivering on time - oops, that already happened). So you are right, I can't necessarily blame the programmers. However, whether the management involved was informed of all of this by their programmers or not (and if they were, doubly bad on them), they have mismanaged the hell out of this.

But, no matter what they do, or will do, WoTC is not off the hook until those products are delivered, and delivered with an acceptable level of quality. I'm sure they wish they weren't, but they will continue to hear all of this from their customers (at least from me) until they deliver. Late is not acceptable, no matter why (well, for the most part anyways - for example, I'd cut them a break for a natural disaster - but as far as I know, Mount St. Hellens has been quiet for the last few years).

For WoTC sake, I hope they do eventually deliver on everything they promised, especially the Game Table. Simply because the downside of not doing exactly that isn't something I think they really want to contemplate in too much depth.

edit: Personally though, however it may sound, I'm really not that indignant or upset at WoTC. However, hearing things like "it's not that simple", or "this is expected", or "this is common with these types of products", to me smacks too much of excuses and spin. Or worse, hearing some declare that no such promises or expectations were made in the first place. I do absolutely despise revisionist history and spin. I may be wrong, but I really have not heard from anyone at WoTC admitting that they absolutely blew it but are working on it. All I do seem to be hearing is "Hey, look at this cool new toy we have for you". My response is: "Whatever, you were supposed to have had it out last June. Come talk to me when you've got it done."

 

[The Ghost]

Yes, it's disappointing and unfortunately not surprising. Is it worth outrage that promises in advertising copy were broken? No. If that were true, I'd have a stern discussion with some spammers about what really counts as "enhancement". Plus, I still don't see super models flocking to me despite all the diet cola and new hair gels I've used.

Ah, yes it is. If I bought a product, any product, and found that all of the features being advertised as part of that product were not working or were delayed - then I do have a right to be upset.

WotC marketed 4e with having all these digital features being part of the product and strongly implied they would be available at product launch. I think everyone who expected these features has a right to be upset that they are not fully functional 7-8 months after launch.

 

[El Mahdi]

And yet, and yet, the magic Shangri La of perfect software every time is, unachievable? How could this be?

Uhhm ... What???

Maybe I'm just tired, but I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say.

Were you asking a question of whether I think successful on time development of software is impossible?

That first sentence, stated as a question, is throwing me off.

Or, are you trying to say that delivering what one says they'll deliver, when they say they'll deliver it, is absolutely impossible when it comes to software?

If so, then I'd say that nothing is impossible (even quality software delivered on time) when one has the necessary competence, discipline, motivation and will for the task at hand. These things hold true for any endeavor, regardless of the subject or field.

I'd also say that it's a very sad commentary indeed, that so many people today feel that meeting minimum standards is considered a completely unobtainable objective not worthy of the attempt (or, as it was stated: Magic Shangri La).

 

[Drkfathr1]

It may be true that most software these days is late, buggy, etc., but that's no excuse not to demand better. Especially when we're promised something different.

If we all just start shrugging our shoulders and lowering our expectations, what standards do those producing goods, services, etc reach for?

Sorry, but I'm not going to heap praise and adulation on anyone that doesn't honestly deserve it. Missing deadlines, not delivering what you promised, and not offering what you originally advertised is not acceptable to me.

I can forgive and move on, and appreciate what's offered when its available, but I'm not going to forget and act like its "mission accomplished".