Wisdom too powerful?

[satori01]

I am fine with Wisdom being associated with Insight but not Perception.

Perception should be Intelligence. I want smart Rogues, not wise Rogues.
Rembering a maze...intelligence. Noticing the small scratches on the inside of a jewelry boxes that indicates a false bottom...should've been Intelligence.


The wise man compliments his wife on her new hair cut.
The smart man, may not notice the haircut, but knows that a wedding is coming up and he should pay a compliment.


Wisdom has many saves based off it...Intelligence will have few.


I know Intelligence has a history of being the dump stat...but let's break the association with Wisdom and Spot/Listen.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am totally on your side. And actually it is very easy to change, as nowhere on your sheet it is said, that perception uses wisdom.
Also it says: "generally a wisdom check", make of it what you will.

At least searching for something seems like it should be int.

 

[Sunseeker]

That depends on how you interpret Wisdom and Intelligence.

I always find Intelligence to be more of the "I studied books and stuff, and know a lot of things."

While I find Wisdom more of "I lived a lot of interesting experiences, and that's made me more knowledgeable about certain stuff."

I can see the argument for Perception to be both, but my opinion is weighted in favor of Wisdom. Knowing what stuff actually looks like because you've experienced it is a lot different than knowing what stuff should look like because you've studied about it.

Personally this was one point I believe 4e got right in reference to Initiative. Some parts of the game should have multiple, variable sources, depending on the type of character you're building. A highly experienced character should be very good at noticing things, just as much as a highly learned character should be. A very nimble character should react just as well physically as a mentally nimble character should be able to ready themselves mentally.

Perhaps different classes should use different stats for each score? Rogues can use wisdom because their knowledge comes from experience. Wizards can use intelligence because their knowledge comes from education. It would certainly lead to some solid diversity between classes without forcing classes that don't use the stats associated with highly important skills like Perception and Initiative to be highly MAD.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Depends on the situation:

If there is a hidden door, you may notice that there are scratches on the floor. And it is a logical conclusion that there must be something behind.
Of course, you have seen a lot, and thus, your experience tells you, that there may be something behind.
I believe, just like climbing, both attributes should work equally well... and why not?

 

[satori01]

While I find Wisdom more of "I lived a lot of interesting experiences, and that's made me more knowledgeable about certain stuff."

I know some of this is aesthetic preference, and thus subjective, but you are describing something I would argue may be outside of the attribute of Wisdom. Surely not all people with 18 Wisdom are old and like the person from " The Most Interesting Man in the World" beer commercials .


The kind but dullard of a skullery boy, might be good at knowing when his lord is in a foul mood, ( the better to escape beatings), and he often brings a flower to the serving women in the castle when they are sad, even if no one else knows and nothing has been said of the cause. Of course he can't add, read, and barely speaks; and despite being raised in the kitchens can never remember where the pots go.


This strikes me as high Wis, low Int, and while emotionaly perceptive, should said character also be the best at seeing a hawk in the sky through bright sunlight, or the person to search a room, or better able to resist Hold Person?

 

[justinhalliday]

I think that the Wisdom/Intelligence dichotomy has always been problematic.

My preference is for all magic to be based on Wisdom (including both arcane and divine), and most skill tests (Perception, Knowledge, Arcana, Lore, Religion, Research, Tracking, etc) are then based on Intelligence.

That way there is a dump stat (Intelligence), but dumping it will have real (and equal) ramifications for both clerics and wizards.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I think what is indicative here is that intelligence, wisdom and charisma are being stretched to their limits in trying to combine ideas into each.

In 5e we have:

* Intelligence: mental acuity, reasoning and logic.
Wisdom: intuition, insight and perception [however, a close reading of wisdom saving throws sees the concept of willpower snuck in]
* Charisma: influence, strength of personality, leadership and ego [with the charisma saving throw also taking a little bit of willpower under the umbrella].

What has happened here is that intelligence has missed out on being commonly used as a saving throw, where as wisdom and charisma have taken on the burden of will saves. As you can see, wisdom is pretty well stacked up taking on the (what I think are the) independent concepts of perception and willpower.

I think I would prefer perception to be completely separate of ability scores: based as much on race and class more so than raw ability scores. Willpower however is a tricky one. I could almost see it being completely rolled into charisma rather than shared with wisdom but either case still feels a little wonky.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I´d like to have some things swapped:

Illusion saves should be int
Fear saves should be cha

Just my two cents.

 

[Blackwarder]

In my last game I used both int and wis for perception checks, depending on the situation.
I also used woodland lore with a bunch of different ability checks.

I think that the last two editions have pigeonholed us into set abilities for skills and that 5e takes a step back from that, in the end it's the DM roll to decide wich ability should be used when.

Warder

 

[Li Shenron]

I just hope there will be no universal dump stats... For one character to choose to dump a stat or two is fine, as long as there is going to be some inevitable drawback. For everybody to dump the same one stat except that one class which specifically needs it for spellcasting, would be very sad.

Anyway, I think there is plenty of time for designers to balance the importance of all stats against each other before publishing the game.