D&D General Wishing Away The Adventure

[MNblockhead]

I was a bit off on the wish consequences (later post) but, yeah, having simulacrum essentially be a wish proxy is both a great idea - and seems like a total abuse.

The player and I talked about it and, in general, where I don't already have home rules, I try to run the game RAW. I was initially inclined to rule that the wizard who cast the simulacrum still had to roll the 33% failure, but "you" in spell descriptions obviously is meant to be the caster, so I allowed it. It is already a high-level magic, gonzo campaign. I could see home ruling wish to work like this though. Where the 33% risk was a risk to the wizard who cast simulacrum. But if I'm going to go down this route, I might as well stick with a lower magic system or homebrew the spells lists in 5e. With high level teleportation, polymorph, time stop, scrying, summoning, the ability to create golems, etc., the simulacrum has not really stood out at that huge of an issue.

I guess where it could get broken is if the simulacrum cast a wish wishing that he would not be destroyed if the wizard who created him cast the simulacrum spell again. But it is well within my judgement as DM, based on how the wish spell's description is written, to not allow that. I haven't had to rule on this yet, as the player hasn't tried it, but my ruling would be that sim 1 would now be a fully independent entity. A clone of the original wizard but with a mind and personality of his own and would be driven to destroy the original wizard and any other sims/clones. It fits within my campaign and seems well within RAW.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I kind of think that's just the definition of "high level."

Well it is no wonder no one wants to play high level games then!

 

[MNblockhead]

I've never actually seen anyone use this spell, but if I did I would warn them that I rule that you cannot make a simulacrum of a simulacrum since it is only partially real. But this is one of the most vague and open to interpretation spells there is. Does it do anything unless verbally commanded to do so? Is it an independent thinking being? It obeys spoken commands, but can it truly show initiative or react to things not explicitly stated in it's verbal commands? It's as intelligent as the original creature but that doesn't mean it has free will or creativity. How far does the lack of ability to learn extend? Can it learn how to get to a new outpost on it's own or will it be confused if the street the original creature normally went down is no longer there? Who knows!

In any case I also don't have a problem banning a spell if I think it makes the game boring or don't fit the campaign we want to run*. Which is different from a spell being powerful. I just think that Simulacrum, depending on how you interpret it, is too open to Pun-Pun exploits.

*The only spells I currently effectively ban is teleportation. Raise dead and banishment are limited because of thematic reasons. Heat metal cast on armor only does damage. I've considered nerfing force cage because it's boring but it doesn't apply often.

Ah good point. I actually am not running simulacrum RAW as I misstated in an earlier post. The player and I agreed that a sim could not cast simulacrum. Well, actually, they can, but would destroy themselves in the process.

I suppose by RAW, the limiting factor is supposed to be that the sim has half the hit points of the caster. But that's still a lot of sims you can create if you just want some class canons or to engage in a lot of high-level downtime magic.

 

[MNblockhead]

One of the best uber-high level adventures I've seen (but not had a chance to run, yet) for PF1 is Sentence of the Sinlord (affiliate link), which was written for 20th(!) level characters that have three to five mythic tiers. It's absolutely insane how over-the-top it is, and I mean that in the best possible way. If nothing else, reading the review on the sales page should help drive home what it's like to run a game at that level.

Have you run it? PF1 at high levels just seems like a nightmare to DM. 5e is about the top end of crunch that I want to deal with as a DM.

 

[Alzrius]

Have you run it? PF1 at high levels just seems like a nightmare to DM. 5e is about the top end of crunch that I want to deal with as a DM.

I mentioned in my post that I hadn't, though I'd like to, if given a chance; that said, I'd want my group to get their organically first, so they'd be able to grow into what their characters can do over time, rather than managing level-appropriate characters like that completely out of the gate. (Also, there'd admittedly need to be prep work on my part before each fight, simply because of how much the various creatures and NPCs have available to them.)

 

[MNblockhead]

Also I'd like to point out that all these issues are about magic, no martial class has the ability to completely restructure what the game is about, and most of the suggested counters are about magic too. So the end game is about mages warping reality and the other mages devising magical countermeasures. Might make the martials feel a bit like sidekicks, no?


Case in point. To be an effective assassin, a rogue will not do, you actually need to be a caster.

Nah, you still need your beefy tanks getting close and dealing massive damage more reliably. A lot if becomes the wizard countering the other wizard so the martial can get up close. At this level, martials still have a lot to work with and likely have powerful magic weapons and armor. In some ways, in high-level magical battles the wizard is an almost clerical support class.

The one fighter in the party is the only one going into battles unpolymorphed these days. She just doesn't need it. The party is more worried about her getting charmed or possessed than dying.

 

[MNblockhead]

Another question is: just how many high level characters are there in the world? Seems logical that at the highest levels it would just be a handful right? How much could such a small group of people really change the world, even if they all wanted to?

Depends on the world and the campaign. There are whole planes full of high-level magic users.

 

[MarkB]

Depends on the world and the campaign. There are whole planes full of high-level magic users.

Indeed. A major aspect of high-level play is that "the world" expands to include far more dangerous areas with higher-level threats and intrinsic hazards.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Indeed. A major aspect of high-level play is that "the world" expands to include far more dangerous areas with higher-level threats and intrinsic hazards.

And then we teleport past those areas and hazards...

 

[MarkB]

And then we teleport past those areas and hazards...

Not if they're your destination.