Wizard vs. Sorcerer

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

But the ones that have it are useful and it's great you don't have to use up a known spell for them. A sorcerer is never going to take Detect Magic or Alarm but they are very handy.

Agreed. And I told my player that to me, the extra spells are what really sets a Wizard apart. But for the metamagic abilities a Sorcerer gets, it is more of an even trade-off IMO.

It's about the same actually, and a Wizard can do it once per short rest versus a long rest for a Sorcerer to get their spell points back.

I thought so, too, at first, but it really favors the Sorcerer in many ways. At maximum ability, a Wizard could regain two 5th-level spells, but a Sorcerer could regain two 5th-level spells and a 4th-level spell. I know at other levels it probably favors the Wizard though.

The bigger issue is the Sorcerer can regain slots as a bonus action! A Sorcerer can also go the other direction and sack spell slots for additional sorcery points, too; again, as a bonus action.

I think you under-estimate the versatility.

That could very well be the case LOL! But the versatility the Sorcerer has in other respects is also formidable so I guess which is better is a matter of perspective.

And you like the Sorcerer subclasses? The ones in the PHB are terrible. Shadow Magic and Storm Sorcery from XGtE are decent. Abjuration and Divination for the Wizard are amazing and Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation are good. Even the others are workable.

No, not really. I think the Sorcerer subclasses are mostly lame as well. But, personally, I don't like many of the archetypes and subclasses available in most of the classes... so, that might just be me.

 

[Immoralkickass]

I checked one site, and I guess there are only about 20 (or a bit less) Ritual spells for Wizards, out of over 200 spells-- so, less than 10%. Honestly, I LOVE the concept, but there just aren't enough to really make it a major factor IMO.

Although some of the metamagic-like abilities of the schools are there, each has only one ability as were a Sorcerer will know four by Tier 4 of play.

Its not about the number of Rituals, its the spell slots you save by casting them. The big 3 - Detect Magic, Comprehend Language and Identify are commonly used and required in almost every kind of campaign. Some DMs might allow Arcana checks to replace the need for those spells, but guess who is better at those checks? Heh. When you get to higher levels, Tiny Hut and Telepathic Bond are fantastic and nice to have.

Wizards simply bring the utility better than Sorcerer, and if my party only can have 1 full caster, I'd pick the wizard. They are better team players, compared to the Sorcerer who has a small, selfish list of spells. Wizards's ability to learn more spells also make them better problem solvers. Say, you discovered you will be fighting a lot of invisible creatures in your campaign. What do you do? Make a trip to the library or magic academy to learn up See Invisibility.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Its not about the number of Rituals, its the spell slots you save by casting them. The big 3 - Detect Magic, Comprehend Language and Identify are commonly used and required in almost every kind of campaign. Some DMs might allow Arcana checks to replace the need for those spells, but guess who is better at those checks? Heh. When you get to higher levels, Tiny Hut and Telepathic Bond are fantastic and nice to have.

Wizards simply bring the utility better than Sorcerer, and if my party only can have 1 full caster, I'd pick the wizard. They are better team players, compared to the Sorcerer who has a small, selfish list of spells. Wizards's ability to learn more spells also make them better problem solvers. Say, you discovered you will be fighting a lot of invisible creatures in your campaign. What do you do? Make a trip to the library or magic academy to learn up See Invisibility.

Those are also good points, especially about being able to learn new spells and thus not limited to "known spells". That is another aspect of the versatility I hadn't given enough thought to. Thanks.

 

[Mistwell]

It's a question of versatility. Sorcerers can be good in a select group of challenges, while wizards can be a swiss army knife in term of options to deal with virtually any kind of challenge. See for example Treantmonk's Guide To Wizards.

War Wizard, btw, is in my opinion the worst Wizard subclass.

 

[Azzy]

Those are also good points, especially about being able to learn new spells and thus not limited to "known spells". That is another aspect of the versatility I hadn't given enough thought to. Thanks.

Sorcerers start to feel more constrained by their known spells at higher-levels, too.

 

[GlassJaw]

It's a question of versatility. Sorcerers can be good in a select group of challenges, while wizards can be a swiss army knife in term of options to deal with virtually any kind of challenge. See for example Treantmonk's Guide To Wizards.

War Wizard, btw, is in my opinion the worst Wizard subclass.

Arcane Deflection and Int mod to Initiative are good but after that, the subclass is pretty awful. Dispel or Counterspell just to gain damage equal to half your wizard level? Bleh.

 

[Blue]

I had a thread last month about what can a Wizard do that the other casters can't. The end result was flexibility.

They have a wider spell list than any other class. Even though the Cleric and the Druid can prepare every day like the Wizard, the Wizard's spells cover well more types of things you want to do. Their weakest is buffing up hit points - they have few healing spells directly, but have spells like polymorph and false life that gratn extra HPs, and spells like Catnap and Rope Trick to help short rests happen more reliably. But for everything else, the Wizard has it in their bag of tricks.

Related is that they of all the classes don't need to have a spell prepared to use it for a ritual, so the wide range of spells that are mostly ritual-only under most usage are effectively extra available.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Arcane Deflection and Int mod to Initiative are good but after that, the subclass is pretty awful. Dispel or Counterspell just to gain damage equal to half your wizard level? Bleh.

True, but so far no one has expressed interest in getting a Wizard class beyond 4th or 5th levels... so, that is why those abilities look better than the alternatives for the school subclasses. A few have promising abilities, but otherwise... meh.

 

[Mort]

So, a player asked me today in what way is a Wizard at all better than a Sorcerer. Since we are just beginning 5E, I have one player as a Sorcerer, but no one has played a Wizard yet. In looking over the classes, all I could suggest was the larger spell list for the Wizard. Any other big ticket things I am missing???

If you like AoE spells, sculpt spells is better than careful spell. By 10th level, overchannel is great.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, it's MUCH easier for a wizard player to course correct. If they pick some bum spells (ones that just don't work as well in play as expected), unless the DM is very stingy, they'll pick up more quickly. The sorcerer player has less spells initially and can't switch out regretted picks quickly (at best 1 per level).

 

[MoonSong]

The ritual casting from spell book is a nice feature, but with so few spells having the ritual tag it isn't a big thing IMO.

Arcane Recovery is not much compared to using Sorcerer points as you can use them to recover spell slots as well.

The increased spell list is good, but since players often pick their favorites I don't see that being big either. I'll spend more time reviewing the lists later.

I've never been impressed with any of the Wizard subclasses other than War Magic personally.

Again, thanks for the feedback and I'll keep looking into the comparison.

Also remember that the wizard gets to prepare more spells than the sorcerer knows. An average wizard will start prepping four spells at first level, while a human divine soul with magic initiate gets 4 spells known. Both of them get to add one more at second and third. Then fourth level happens and the wizard increases int, so it's 8 prepped spells versus seven known spells, then 13 vs 11 at eight, then 17 vs 14 at 12th, and the difference only grows by then. (And notice that this Divine soul build is the best possible case, and that a sorcerer will only have one spell known of the highest level, or two by retraining a spell known of a lower level, while the wizard can have up to four by leveling alone)

War Wizard, btw, is in my opinion the worst Wizard subclass.

Which is why its the only wizard I'll allow in my games, if any... n_n