Wizard vs. Sorcerer

[Baumi]

Just want to add that Sorcerers have one more Cantrip (most Cantrips of all Classes), which is nice but often forgotten. On the other hand at higher Level (11+) a Sorcerer only gets one Spell known every two Levels, while a Wizard gets 4 at the same timespan .. that can be quite frustrating.

But when a Players chooses between these two classes he/she should not forget that the classes have quite a different focus outside of spellcasting. The Wizard is the only INT Main-Class and therefore the master of Knowledge. The Sorcerer on the other hand is great with other People thanks to his high CHA and his Skill Proficiencies. So does he/she want to portrait a Knowledgeable or a especially likable Character?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Wow, playing and DMing 5e for 4 years now, and I thought wizards also need to have the spell prepared. Cool, I'll tell our wizard...

That's indeed an incredible feature. OP mentioned that there's only 20 or so rituals on the wizard list. While that's true, a Wizard that gets to know only those 20 rituals and no other spells (why not) would still have a more spells than a sorcerer while being to use them at-will without slot or needing to prepare them in advance.

I agree with OP though, the wizard is a little bland when it comes to features and archetype compared to the sorcerer's. Just like the fighter, I think the wizard could benefit from more flavorful archetypes to tell a story. I'm still debating between new schools for my FR campaigns (Red Wizard, Many-Starred, Luskan Brotherhood, Magist etc) or simply use the GGtR model and create faction expanded spell list.

 

[Baumi]

I still weep for the Playtest-Sorcerer, who transformed more and more into a dragon-man (toughter, better at fighting) the more spells he had expended. Now that was a cool class, that was also quite different to the Wizard.

 

[FrogReaver]

For level 1 spells the following spells are good ones that a wizard gets that a sorcerer doesn’t. Many of these are also rituals.

Alarm
Find familiar
Identify
Tahsa’s Hideous laughter
Unseen servant

Also, the wizard is much better off with comprehend languages and detect magic as both can be cast as rituals by him.

All these spells allow a wizard to do a lot more than a sorcerer can do at level 1. Coupled with more spells know and prepared the difference is amazing.

 

[Leatherhead]

So what spells can the wizard take that are good that the sorcerer cannot take at all?

Edit: I ignored the "Good" part of this, because the total list needed to be made.

Cantrips:
Encode Thoughts
Toll the Dead

Level 1:
Alarm (r)
Cause Fear
Chaos Bolt (Sorcerer Only)
Find Familiar (r)
Grease
Identify (r)
Illusory Script (r)
Longstrider
Protection from Evil
Snare
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk (r)
Unseen servant (r)

Level 2:
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Flaming Sphere
Flock of Familiars
Gentle Repose (r)
Locate Object
Magic Mouth (r)
Magic Weapon
Melf's Acid Arrow
Nystul's Magic Aura
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Skywrite (r)

3rd level:
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Daylight (Sorcerer)
Feign Death (r)
Galder's Tower
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut (r)
Life Transference
Magic Circle
Nondetection
Phantom Steed (r)
Remove Curse
Sending
Summon Lesser Demon
Tiny Servant
Vampiric Touch
Wall of Sand
Water Walk (Sorcerer)

4th level:
Arcane Eye
Conjure Minor Elemental
Control Water
Dominate Beast (Sorcerer)
Elemental Bane
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Galder's Speedy Courier
Hallucinatory Terrain
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Stone Shape
Summon Greater Demon

5th Level:
Bigby's Hand.
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane (r)
Dance Macabre
Dawn
Dream
Geas
Infernal Calling
Insect Plague (Sorcerer)
Mislead
Modify Memory
Negative Energy Flood
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary's Telepathic Bond (r)
Scrying
Steel Wind Strike
Transmute Rock
Wall of Force

6th Level
Contingency
Create Homunculus
Create Undead
Dawmij's Instant Summons (r)
Flesh to Stone
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Soul Cage
Tenser's Transformation
Wall of Ice.

7th Level
Firestorm (Sorcerer)
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Sword
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Project Image
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol

8th Level
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Demiplane
Earthquake (Sorcerer)
Feeblemind
Illusory Dragon
Maddening Darkness
Maze
Mighty Fortress
Mind Blank
Telepathy

9th level
Astral Projection
Foresight
Imprisonment
Invulnerability
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
True Polymorph
Weird

The common themes are Rituals, Advanced Necromancy or Illusions, Walls, and Signature Spells. While the Sorcerer picks up some elemental or nature spells, though not nearly as much.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

To be quite frank, during the first half of the game, you are going to look at your spellcasting piers with envy, as they also get spellcasting, good to amazing proficiencies, and class abilities that are way more robust and flavorful than just casting a few more spells per day. Adding insult to injury, a Wizard isn't even necessarily the best at casting any given spell, thanks to said class features.

It's really weird to evaluate a class this basis; you're basically saying "I am not automatically the best at casting this spell, someone could specifically build to cast it better than me, therefore it's no good at all." For example, Find Familiar is an incredibly useful spell - Familiars are great for scouting and posting looking, and can their ability to deliver touch spells or help an action is huge. Wizards casually pick this up as a first level spell that they don't even need to prepare (and sorcerers don't get it). An Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster can take it since they're 'wizard light', though it cuts into their known spells badly. A warlock can get it at 3rd level if they take pact of the tome and book of rituals (using up one incantation) or an improved version through pact of the chain (using up a major class feature). But focusing on the fact that a warlock could choose to make himself a find familiar specialist and have a better one than you overlooks that the wizard just picks this up casually at barely any cost.

Now, I'm not going to sugar coat this, most of the rituals are highly circumstantial, if not pointless.

Detect magic at will is incredibly useful for figuring out magical traps and making sure you don't overlook magic items. Unseen servant gives you a 'go pull the suspicious lever/sit on the throne/walk across that floor' guy if you aren't pressed for time. Find Familiar is one of the best spells in the game. Water Breathing, while situational, is really useful when it's needed. Leomund's Tiny Hut is close to game breaking with how useful it is. Some are campaign dependent, but in campaigns where they're useful identify and comprehend languages are practically required. And you don't need to use a precious invocation slot like a warlock does to have any of these on tap, just pick it up as a spell known or spend gold to copy it to your book. Sure there are some weak rituals, but I don't see how the existence of illusionary script detracts from things like 'set off traps without damaging me, read any language, find any magic, have a super-scout, breathe water, make a safe place to sleep' after a 10 minute wait. It's weird to me that I will see people both scoff at wizard ritual casting, but also recommend that a warlock use one of their precious invocation slots for things like 'detect magic at will' or 'comprehend languages at will'.

I agree that wizards are not the 'super #1 class' the way they were in 3e, or the 'at higher levels they absolutely wreck' the way they were in 1e, but they are not a bad class, and people who think they are tend to ignore or devalue some of the things they get to do casually.

 

[Dausuul]

So, a player asked me today in what way is a Wizard at all better than a Sorcerer. Since we are just beginning 5E, I have one player as a Sorcerer, but no one has played a Wizard yet. In looking over the classes, all I could suggest was the larger spell list for the Wizard. Any other big ticket things I am missing???

Nope. I mean, there are some neat features on some wizard subclasses, but nothing earth-shattering. It's all about the spell list. The wizard has more spells available to learn; and can prepare more spells; and can change prepared spells each day; and has all their ritual spells "prepared" for free.

It sounds like your player doesn't understand just how big a deal all that stuff is. As a spellcaster, spells are your bread and butter. Every time there's an encounter where none of your spells is useful, you are dead weight. Every time you're forced to use a sub-par spell because it's the only one that can do anything, you are crippled. That is much more likely to happen to a sorcerer, especially if you aren't careful about picking your spells.

 

[André Soares]

Nope. I mean, there are some neat features on some wizard subclasses, but nothing earth-shattering. It's all about the spell list. The wizard has more spells available to learn; and can prepare more spells; and can change prepared spells each day; and has all their ritual spells "prepared" for free.

It sounds like your player doesn't understand just how big a deal all that stuff is. As a spellcaster, spells are your bread and butter. Every time there's an encounter where none of your spells is useful, you are dead weight. Every time you're forced to use a sub-par spell because it's the only one that can do anything, you are crippled. That is much more likely to happen to a sorcerer, especially if you aren't careful about picking your spells.

are you sure portrent is not earth shattering?

 

[Leatherhead]

It's really weird to evaluate a class this basis; you're basically saying "I am not automatically the best at casting this spell, someone could specifically build to cast it better than me, therefore it's no good at all."

No, it's saying "If you want to burn things to death, maybe you should look at the class that's designed around that, instead of a class that can do that incidentally." It's an extremely relevant evaluation when comparing classes.

Sure there are some weak rituals, but I don't see how the existence of illusionary script detracts from things like 'set off traps without damaging me, read any language, find any magic, have a super-scout, breathe water, make a safe place to sleep' after a 10 minute wait.

Leomund’s Tiny Hut being useful isn't somehow going to make Feign Death Useful. The point was people who just look at the number of total rituals aren't getting the full picture.

It's weird to me that I will see people both scoff at wizard ritual casting, but also recommend that a warlock use one of their precious invocation slots for things like 'detect magic at will' or 'comprehend languages at will'.

Those people are recommending the opportunity cost of any given invocation against other invocations. Recommending classes VS classes is a different opportunity cost entirely.

I agree that wizards are not the 'super #1 class' the way they were in 3e, or the 'at higher levels they absolutely wreck' the way they were in 1e, but they are not a bad class, and people who think they are tend to ignore or devalue some of the things they get to do casually.

The current idea about wizards is that they are some kind of god among mortals. Understanding that they aren't is essential, both to the detractors of the wizard, and more importantly to the people who are actually interested in playing them. It's not undervaluing, it's an attempt to ground people in a realistic perspective.

 

[Dausuul]

are you sure portrent is not earth shattering?

It's pretty damn good. Having played a diviner, I don't know that I'd call it earth-shattering, though. Its utility is heavily dependent on what you roll for a given day and how skilled you are at identifying the opportune moment to use it. If you roll a 10 and an 11, you won't get nearly as much mileage out of it as if you rolled a 20 and a 1.

The strongest use of Portent is to guarantee a failed saving throw, and sorcerers have a comparable option with Heighten Spell. Disadvantage is not as good as "You roll a 2," but it's often better than "You roll a 9," and sorcerers can do it more often.