Wizard vs. Sorcerer

[GlassJaw]

If those descriptions and fluff and story actually mean something to you and you use them as a foundation for who your character is... you will most certainly have a different feeling about playing a wizard versus playing a sorcerer. And there's something to be said about that.

That does not prevent having a discussion on game mechanics and balance. Role-playing and game design are not mutually exclusive.

 

[André Soares]

well, it can avoid a critical hit, transform a bad death saving throw in a good one, make any bad roll good or good roll bad. the only limitation is the ability of the player to identify the right time to use it. It can't be avoided, neither de PCs nor the DM can do anithing about it. If this is not earth-shattering what class power is?

 

[Mort]

are you sure portrent is not earth shattering?

Portent is an excellent ability - but it has limitations. In addition to what was said above:

You must substitute the die before it is rolled. It's not negating a crit or a fumble or otherwise reversing a result. You must decide going in if you'll use it.

I've seen that for some players, this renders the ability much less useful. They're so hesitant to use it (might need it later!) that it nearly goes to waste.

 

[Mort]

well, it can avoid a critical hit, transform a bad death saving throw in a good one, make any bad roll good or good roll bad....

It cannot do any of those things actually - and that's why it's great but not game breaking/earth shattering.

Now combine with the luck feat - then you've really got something.

Combine it with the luck feat and the halfling's lucky ability - the DM is throwing dice at you.

 

[André Soares]

Oh yes, you are right, you don't get to see the roll, totally blanked on that. But either way it's very strong. Wizard players having the "too good to be used" problem with this power will be really stressed out about their spell slot managment hahaha

But my point was just that there are some really powerfull powers in the wizard subclasses... bladesong is a great defensive option, as is arcane ward, and there are a lot of other powerfull options there. Of course, spells are the core of the class, and they are the most powerfull part of it, but that does not mean the subclasses are underpowered.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

No, it's saying "If you want to burn things to death, maybe you should look at the class that's designed around that, instead of a class that can do that incidentally." It's an extremely relevant evaluation when comparing classes.

That's not at all what the post I was responding to said, and seems weird to throw into this thread - maybe I'm missing something, but the OP didn't say 'I want a class that just burns things to death', he seemed to be asking a more general question than 'who is the best at this one specific thing'.

Leomund’s Tiny Hut being useful isn't somehow going to make Feign Death Useful. The point was people who just look at the number of total rituals aren't getting the full picture.

Were there any of those people in this thread? It really seems like you're continuing an argument from somewhere else in here.

Those people are recommending the opportunity cost of any given invocation against other invocations. Recommending classes VS classes is a different opportunity cost entirely.

Yes, and they're rating those abilities highly enough that they compete with things like being able to see through darkness, extra melee attack, knocking enemies back 10-40', and the like. Wizards just get those abilities those. For next to no cost. At first level.

The current idea about wizards is that they are some kind of god among mortals. Understanding that they aren't is essential, both to the detractors of the wizard, and more importantly to the people who are actually interested in playing them. It's not undervaluing, it's an attempt to ground people in a realistic perspective.

That's not what I've seen. I've seen several 'what are wizards even good at' questions in this thread and on the character optimization board, there's a long running 'low level wizards suck in 5e' thread, a 'wizards don't feel magical anymore because they use magic instead of crossbows' thread, and pretty much no 'wizards are the best evar'. In local AL play, I do see some wizards, but they aren't the most popular class, I don't run into anyone who thinks they dominate the game, and I certainly don't expect to end up with at least one in the party, unlike paladins. Where are you getting the idea that people think wizards are really super good?

 

[André Soares]

Were there any of those people in this thread? It really seems like you're continuing an argument from somewhere else in here.

For what it's worth there was a post saying that ritual casting is lackluster because it's corresponds to about 10% of the wizard's spell list...

and about the wizard being God or whatever, this yo me looks like a concept being ported from 3e. There it was very true... now, not so much

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I used to be of the opinion that the wizard was a far superior version of the sorcerer and then I played a divine soul sorcerer for a couple of one shots. The sorcerer gets some great power plays with metamagic, in particular twinned spell that I had chosen most of my spells to synergize with. Chromatic orb, phantasmal force, haste, and banishment can all be devastating to twin at the level where those spells are relevant. I think the divine soul subclass really helped in my enjoyment of it too as I also really like the cleric class.

But having also played a wizard I still think they edge out the sorcerer a bit in terms of power. Find familiar (which is basically a class feature by itself), the conjure elemental spells and divinations like arcane eye and scrying were all powerful spells I really enjoyed as a wizard that the sorcerer simply doesn't get. I'd argue that there are spells exclusive to the wizard that are power plays that are comparable what the sorcerer can do with meta magic. And on top of that you get enough spell choices to really diversify what you can do in all pillars of the game instead of having to build around metamagic.

 

[Dausuul]

Where Portent shines is when an ally needs a very high roll to succeed, or when an enemy needs a very bad roll to fail. That doesn't happen too often, but when it does, you can nail it--if you have a suitable Portent roll to give out. Like I said, if you roll a 10 or 11, it's not going to do much for you that day. (Which is a nice bit of flavor for the diviner, incidentally. If you get mediocre results on your Portent dice, you can announce that you have seen leaves falling from the tree still green, and smelled smoke on the wind at dawn, and therefore today is an inauspicious day for your quest and it would be better to wait until tomorrow.)

It's also worth noting that there are things which can counteract Portent. Legendary Resistance is the biggie. Even if you force a natural 1 on the save, a shot of LR will turn that failure into a success.

Portent is a very, very good ability. It was absolutely my reason for picking diviner last time I played a wizard, and I do not regret that choice one bit. Effectiveness aside, it's just fun to point at the DM and say "You roll a 2." But I would not call it earth-shattering.

 

[Mort]

Where Portent shines is when an ally needs a very high roll to succeed, or when an enemy needs a very bad roll to fail. That doesn't happen too often, but when it does, you can nail it--if you have a suitable Portent roll to give out. Like I said, if you roll a 10 or 11, it's not going to do much for you that day. (Which is a nice bit of flavor for the diviner, incidentally. If you get mediocre results on your Portent dice, you can announce that you have seen leaves falling from the tree still green, and smelled smoke on the wind at dawn, and therefore today is an inauspicious day for your quest and it would be better to wait until tomorrow.)

It's also worth noting that there are things which can counteract Portent. Legendary Resistance is the biggie. Even if you force a natural 1 on the save, a shot of LR will turn that failure into a success.

Portent is a very, very good ability. It was absolutely my reason for picking diviner last time I played a wizard, and I do not regret that choice one bit. Effectiveness aside, it's just fun to point at the DM and say "You roll a 2." But I would not call it earth-shattering.

Bit off topic, but a question since you played a diviner:

How useful was Expert Divination for your wizard (the one that lets you recover a lower level slot when you cast a divination spell)? Did it come up a lot, rarely?