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WhosDaDungeonMaster
Guest
More good points, people! Thanks for your contributions. I'm meeting with the player tomorrow so I'll be interested on his take with your views.
Wizard vs. Sorcerer
jgsugden
Legend
Each 'type' of wizard plays very differently. My deep gnome enchanterplays far differently my human abjurer did.
My deep gnome urchin enchanter is a blast. With his limited 'hold monster cantrip', his attack deflection, his large set of rituals (which you underestimate in value.... they're huge) and a wide selection of spells gained via leveling and finding, he has a lot of options....
BUT, the wizard is not really that much more versatile than the sorcerer. He can only prepare a handful more spells than the sorcerer knows. That is the greatest constraint of the wizard. He ends up with ~10 less prepared spells than a cleric or land druid. You feel that constaint.
Still, having played both, I'd recommend he play ... whatever feels like fun. They're both gret classes.
My deep gnome urchin enchanter is a blast. With his limited 'hold monster cantrip', his attack deflection, his large set of rituals (which you underestimate in value.... they're huge) and a wide selection of spells gained via leveling and finding, he has a lot of options....
BUT, the wizard is not really that much more versatile than the sorcerer. He can only prepare a handful more spells than the sorcerer knows. That is the greatest constraint of the wizard. He ends up with ~10 less prepared spells than a cleric or land druid. You feel that constaint.
Still, having played both, I'd recommend he play ... whatever feels like fun. They're both gret classes.
Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
Coincidentally, I have spent about a week trying to figure out this question, here is what I have come up with so far:
Firstly, we have to start with the basics. Because I'm not going to start from the Capstone and work my way down, that doesn't flow, and most people get fed up with the class well before the Capstone is an option.
HD: D6
Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, Darts, Slings, Quaterstaffs, Light Crossbows.
Tools: None
Saving Throws: INT, WIS
Skills: Pick two; Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Religion.
Primary Ability Score: INT
This means that Wizards are the squishiest members of their team, sharing the smallest HD, the d6, with Sorcerers and being restricted from using even the least of armors. Wis is a good save to prevent some nasty conditions, but INT is rare unless you are in a campaign with Mind Flayers. But against traditional damaging spells you are quite vulnerable.
Wizards also have a small and the least useful selection of skills out of their contemporaries (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and even Warlock). Insight is their only Social skill, leaving them unable to convince, bluff, or cajole, without resorting to brute force or differing to a different character. (Even Fighters get Intimidate!) Medicine is practically useless, you only need a DC 10 check to stabilize (which can be compensated for with a healers kit) and Wizards don't inherently have any way to cure sicknesses even when they know what is making their patient sick. For the exploration pillar of the game they get Investigation, which is often forgotten in favor of Perception. Rounding out their skill list they have Arcana, History, and Religion. While Arcana and Religion can be used to identify monsters in the middle of combat, their main use is for your DM to provide a Lore Dump. Arcana can also be used to identify a spell as it's being cast, but you would never actually want to do that because it uses your reaction, which means you can't Counterspell the recently identified Fireball that is coming for your face. Additionally, the Primary ability for the Wizard is INT, which doesn't lend itself to many active skill options. The silver lining as a Single Ability Dependent Class (SAD) is you could pick up a decent smattering of a more useful ability. Though you will probably want to focus on CON as your secondary ability, seeing as how that keeps you alive and lets you Concentrate on keeping your spells running.
At this point, (after looking at that anemic weapon list if you really have to) you should probably realize that Wizards are for basically one thing, Casting Spells. Which is good for them, because casting spells, and casting them more often (and ASIs, I suppose, but really, everyone gets those) is the bulk of what you get for being a Wizard. Heck, you don't even see half of your Core Class abilities until the final Tier of the game, so you can basically forget about them.
To be quite frank, during the first half of the game, you are going to look at your spellcasting piers with envy, as they also get spellcasting, good to amazing proficiencies, and class abilities that are way more robust and flavorful than just casting a few more spells per day. Adding insult to injury, a Wizard isn't even necessarily the best at casting any given spell, thanks to said class features.
So what is a low level Wizard good for then? Basically, Rituals. Your soul low level advantage (barring subclass or race features) is your Spellbook, which lets you cast every ritual you know whenever you want without having to prepare it before hand. While other classes can also perform rituals, Wizards inherently have the most rituals, and you also start at level 1 with 6 spells of your choice. Allowing you to get a massive leg up on your only real competition for this role, the Tome Pact Warlock (Make no mistake, they will beat you in this department if given enough time)
Now, I'm not going to sugar coat this, most of the rituals are highly circumstantial, if not pointless. There are 19 Rituals that a Wizard can learn (out of 34 in the game). 8 First level, 4 Second level, 4 Third level, 0 Fourth level (seriously), 2 Fifth level, and 2 Sixth level. Seventh level and above spells are too powerful (in theory anyway), so there aren't any rituals of those levels. Broken down by School: Abjuration, 1. Conjuration, 3. Divination, 5. Enchantment, 0. Evocation, 1. Illusion, 3. Necromancy, 2. Transmutation, 2. And out of all those Rituals, about 9 are worth going out of your way for.
It doesn't sound all that impressive, but still having 9+ mediocre to good abilities on-tap whenever you are out of combat will more than get you by in the early game. And if you really need a solution to a problem, there are always spell slots that can be burned to get around them. The only issue is, of course, surviving long enough to get all the spells that make the Wizard into a force comparable to what everyone says they are. And it's not like Wizards are particularly bad in combat either, they just have to focus on defensive tactics, which some find boring, but to each their own.
Ultimately though, I think that people are just overhyping the Wizard due to prior edition biases. The only spellcasters that are actually unhappy with themselves are Sorcerers, mostly due to their under filled spell list and lack of spell choices at the endgame.
Firstly, we have to start with the basics. Because I'm not going to start from the Capstone and work my way down, that doesn't flow, and most people get fed up with the class well before the Capstone is an option.
HD: D6
Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, Darts, Slings, Quaterstaffs, Light Crossbows.
Tools: None
Saving Throws: INT, WIS
Skills: Pick two; Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Religion.
Primary Ability Score: INT
This means that Wizards are the squishiest members of their team, sharing the smallest HD, the d6, with Sorcerers and being restricted from using even the least of armors. Wis is a good save to prevent some nasty conditions, but INT is rare unless you are in a campaign with Mind Flayers. But against traditional damaging spells you are quite vulnerable.
Wizards also have a small and the least useful selection of skills out of their contemporaries (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and even Warlock). Insight is their only Social skill, leaving them unable to convince, bluff, or cajole, without resorting to brute force or differing to a different character. (Even Fighters get Intimidate!) Medicine is practically useless, you only need a DC 10 check to stabilize (which can be compensated for with a healers kit) and Wizards don't inherently have any way to cure sicknesses even when they know what is making their patient sick. For the exploration pillar of the game they get Investigation, which is often forgotten in favor of Perception. Rounding out their skill list they have Arcana, History, and Religion. While Arcana and Religion can be used to identify monsters in the middle of combat, their main use is for your DM to provide a Lore Dump. Arcana can also be used to identify a spell as it's being cast, but you would never actually want to do that because it uses your reaction, which means you can't Counterspell the recently identified Fireball that is coming for your face. Additionally, the Primary ability for the Wizard is INT, which doesn't lend itself to many active skill options. The silver lining as a Single Ability Dependent Class (SAD) is you could pick up a decent smattering of a more useful ability. Though you will probably want to focus on CON as your secondary ability, seeing as how that keeps you alive and lets you Concentrate on keeping your spells running.
At this point, (after looking at that anemic weapon list if you really have to) you should probably realize that Wizards are for basically one thing, Casting Spells. Which is good for them, because casting spells, and casting them more often (and ASIs, I suppose, but really, everyone gets those) is the bulk of what you get for being a Wizard. Heck, you don't even see half of your Core Class abilities until the final Tier of the game, so you can basically forget about them.
To be quite frank, during the first half of the game, you are going to look at your spellcasting piers with envy, as they also get spellcasting, good to amazing proficiencies, and class abilities that are way more robust and flavorful than just casting a few more spells per day. Adding insult to injury, a Wizard isn't even necessarily the best at casting any given spell, thanks to said class features.
So what is a low level Wizard good for then? Basically, Rituals. Your soul low level advantage (barring subclass or race features) is your Spellbook, which lets you cast every ritual you know whenever you want without having to prepare it before hand. While other classes can also perform rituals, Wizards inherently have the most rituals, and you also start at level 1 with 6 spells of your choice. Allowing you to get a massive leg up on your only real competition for this role, the Tome Pact Warlock (Make no mistake, they will beat you in this department if given enough time)
Now, I'm not going to sugar coat this, most of the rituals are highly circumstantial, if not pointless. There are 19 Rituals that a Wizard can learn (out of 34 in the game). 8 First level, 4 Second level, 4 Third level, 0 Fourth level (seriously), 2 Fifth level, and 2 Sixth level. Seventh level and above spells are too powerful (in theory anyway), so there aren't any rituals of those levels. Broken down by School: Abjuration, 1. Conjuration, 3. Divination, 5. Enchantment, 0. Evocation, 1. Illusion, 3. Necromancy, 2. Transmutation, 2. And out of all those Rituals, about 9 are worth going out of your way for.
It doesn't sound all that impressive, but still having 9+ mediocre to good abilities on-tap whenever you are out of combat will more than get you by in the early game. And if you really need a solution to a problem, there are always spell slots that can be burned to get around them. The only issue is, of course, surviving long enough to get all the spells that make the Wizard into a force comparable to what everyone says they are. And it's not like Wizards are particularly bad in combat either, they just have to focus on defensive tactics, which some find boring, but to each their own.
Ultimately though, I think that people are just overhyping the Wizard due to prior edition biases. The only spellcasters that are actually unhappy with themselves are Sorcerers, mostly due to their under filled spell list and lack of spell choices at the endgame.
It's certainly redundant and boring.
Aiden_Keller_
First Post
Open option to explore through spell books.
Availability of spells.
The Sub Classes...I mainly play a Bladesong Wizard....
Availability of spells.
The Sub Classes...I mainly play a Bladesong Wizard....
Sword of Spirit
Legend
You're missing something huge here. A wizard's Arcane Recovery is a pure feature; there is no cost to using it. For a sorcerer, getting more spell slots competes with using metamagic. They have to power both (and some of their subclass abilities for most of them) from the same pool. This is huge. It means a sorcerer who wants to have as many spell slots as a wizard essentially doesn't get to use metamagic (well maybe you get to use it once or twice a day), or vice versa. Even the designers recognized this as an undesirable and toned down the subclass sorcery point requirements outside if the PHB.I can't play a sorcerer without that leaving a sour taste in my mouth. The other huge thing has already been addressed, the much greater number of spells they have access to due to more prepared than sorcerers know, plus rituals on top of that. Not to mention the spell list they have available to learn from has 100+ spells sorcerers can't learn, compared to under 10 sorcerer spells that wizards can't learn.
AkaKageWarrior
Explorer
After having read how memorizing spells now works for wizards, I thought "who needs sorcerers"?
But heck, then I saw my son play one...
So I have seen both in play, an evoker wizard (up to level 10), and a dragon sorcerer (up to level 12).
Wizard: more utility, due to simply more spells
Sorcerer: more damage, due to metamagic (area damage + quickened cantrip, many rounds...)
So I'd say they even out.
Wanna blast, go sorcerer.
Wanna be the magic swiss army knife, go wizard.
Wow, playing and DMing 5e for 4 years now, and I thought wizards also need to have the spell prepared. Cool, I'll tell our wizard...
But heck, then I saw my son play one...
So I have seen both in play, an evoker wizard (up to level 10), and a dragon sorcerer (up to level 12).
Wizard: more utility, due to simply more spells
Sorcerer: more damage, due to metamagic (area damage + quickened cantrip, many rounds...)
So I'd say they even out.
Wanna blast, go sorcerer.
Wanna be the magic swiss army knife, go wizard.
Wow, playing and DMing 5e for 4 years now, and I thought wizards also need to have the spell prepared. Cool, I'll tell our wizard...
Li Shenron
Legend
I haven't really seen a Sorcerer in play across many levels, but on paper I still have the impression that it's inferior to the Wizard.
In terms of versatility and out-of-combat utility, there is no match between then two. The difference in the amount of spells known is unquestionable. As a Sorcerer, you have to either choose one niche role, or if you want a little versatility you then have to limit yourself to one-two spells per type. Fortunately 5e offers at least some scalability with many spells, so it's possible to stick to a single low-level attack spell all your career and bump it up in slot level to keep it reasonably efficient at later levels, but a Wizard's life will still be easier.
I did some calculations a long time ago, and it seemed to me that indeed Arcane Recovery and Sorcery Points were almost the same at all levels in terms of mere spell slots that can be created using them in the course of one day, but there are multiple caveats:
1) Sorcery Points are FAST because they only cost you a bonus action and you can use them anytime i.e. just when you need them; Arcane Recovery is SLOW because you need a short rest to activate it, and you cannot split the recovery to multiple short rest but you have to do it all at once (it says "once per day"), and obviously you can regain slots only after you've spent them (unlike with Sorcery Points) > Sorcerer has the edge on this
2) But... other abilities compete for Sorcery Points: it's not only extra slots, but also metamagic and subclass features. That's VERY much a disadvantage.
So while you can say that Sorcery Points = Arcane Recovery in terms of maximum number of spells slots, the Wizard can pretty much always get all those spells slots, albeit certainly not on the fly. The Sorcerer who does that however, is losing all her metamagic capabilities as well as a few subclass features for the day.
Add to the above the fact that Rituals are spells cast without expending slots, and in tier 4 the Wizard gets more generous low-level bonus casting than the Sorcerer (compare the Wizard's Spell Mastery + Signature Spells versus the Sorcerer's Sorcerous Restoration), and it's clear that the Wizard casts MORE spells per day than a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer may be able of slightly reduce the difference by losing concentration spells less often thanks to Constitution saving throw proficiency, but this actually depends on how often they use concentration spells.
Finally, the old idea that spontaneous casting is better than preparation casting is totally wrong in 5e. It is not the slightest better, when the number of spells the Sorcerer knows is basically the same as the number of spells the Wizard prepares. It essentially means that the Wizard can be seen as a Sorcerer who can change her known spells every day.
So what can salvage the Sorcerer from plain and simply losing the comparison?
Well, the Sorcerer does have a certain possibility of pushing her spells a bit more in emergency or "nova" situations, thanks to metamagic and the faster creating of spells slots. But I think you need to have the right campaign and gamestyle to make this a real and frequent advantage. If this is what they had in mind when they designed the Sorcerer, I don't think it was a good idea.
In terms of versatility and out-of-combat utility, there is no match between then two. The difference in the amount of spells known is unquestionable. As a Sorcerer, you have to either choose one niche role, or if you want a little versatility you then have to limit yourself to one-two spells per type. Fortunately 5e offers at least some scalability with many spells, so it's possible to stick to a single low-level attack spell all your career and bump it up in slot level to keep it reasonably efficient at later levels, but a Wizard's life will still be easier.
I did some calculations a long time ago, and it seemed to me that indeed Arcane Recovery and Sorcery Points were almost the same at all levels in terms of mere spell slots that can be created using them in the course of one day, but there are multiple caveats:
1) Sorcery Points are FAST because they only cost you a bonus action and you can use them anytime i.e. just when you need them; Arcane Recovery is SLOW because you need a short rest to activate it, and you cannot split the recovery to multiple short rest but you have to do it all at once (it says "once per day"), and obviously you can regain slots only after you've spent them (unlike with Sorcery Points) > Sorcerer has the edge on this
2) But... other abilities compete for Sorcery Points: it's not only extra slots, but also metamagic and subclass features. That's VERY much a disadvantage.
So while you can say that Sorcery Points = Arcane Recovery in terms of maximum number of spells slots, the Wizard can pretty much always get all those spells slots, albeit certainly not on the fly. The Sorcerer who does that however, is losing all her metamagic capabilities as well as a few subclass features for the day.
Add to the above the fact that Rituals are spells cast without expending slots, and in tier 4 the Wizard gets more generous low-level bonus casting than the Sorcerer (compare the Wizard's Spell Mastery + Signature Spells versus the Sorcerer's Sorcerous Restoration), and it's clear that the Wizard casts MORE spells per day than a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer may be able of slightly reduce the difference by losing concentration spells less often thanks to Constitution saving throw proficiency, but this actually depends on how often they use concentration spells.
Finally, the old idea that spontaneous casting is better than preparation casting is totally wrong in 5e. It is not the slightest better, when the number of spells the Sorcerer knows is basically the same as the number of spells the Wizard prepares. It essentially means that the Wizard can be seen as a Sorcerer who can change her known spells every day.
So what can salvage the Sorcerer from plain and simply losing the comparison?
Well, the Sorcerer does have a certain possibility of pushing her spells a bit more in emergency or "nova" situations, thanks to metamagic and the faster creating of spells slots. But I think you need to have the right campaign and gamestyle to make this a real and frequent advantage. If this is what they had in mind when they designed the Sorcerer, I don't think it was a good idea.
André Soares
First Post
On the long run your known spells as a sorcerer are very limited. You end up having to choose wich awesome high level spells you character knows and will probably never change them, while the Wizard can possibly have all wizard spells in their arsenal.
The subclasses are another point to, pertrent for the divination wizard is one of the most powerfull powers in the game.
Ritual spell are a small percentage of the spell, but their uses are many. Find familiar gives a lot of scouting power to the wizard, tiny hut can save the party's life, identify is a must have, and the list goes on. Even if they are 10% of the wizard's list, its rare the have a session where no ritual spells are cast.
None of this say that the wizard is objectvely better than the sorcerer, but they are at least equals in power. The wizard having flexibility in wich spell to cast, and the sorcerer in how to cast them.
The subclasses are another point to, pertrent for the divination wizard is one of the most powerfull powers in the game.
Ritual spell are a small percentage of the spell, but their uses are many. Find familiar gives a lot of scouting power to the wizard, tiny hut can save the party's life, identify is a must have, and the list goes on. Even if they are 10% of the wizard's list, its rare the have a session where no ritual spells are cast.
None of this say that the wizard is objectvely better than the sorcerer, but they are at least equals in power. The wizard having flexibility in wich spell to cast, and the sorcerer in how to cast them.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
the first point of comparison isn’t spells known and prepared or even abilities but what spells are on the spell list. A great spell list is a huge advantage.
So what spells can the wizard take that are good that the sorcerer cannot take at all?
So what spells can the wizard take that are good that the sorcerer cannot take at all?
And of course, there's the one other thing we need to remember in the wizard vs sorcerer debate (which admittedly will mean absolutely nothing to a select group of players):
The essence and feel of roleplaying a wizard is markedly different than that of a sorcerer.
If all you are going to do is look at game mechanics for how best to interact with the game part of D&D (which is fine if that's what you and your table care about)... then perhaps the wizard will seem like the weaker sibling of the sorcerer (especially if combat is a heavy focus and you just need someone throwing damaging spells around every turn.)
But if you going to look at your character from a character perspective... who they are, what their background is, what they enjoy, how they behave... I don't think anyone would say the roleplaying essence of a wizard is the same-but-weaker version of the sorcerer. I mean just having that high INT already gets a player into a particular mindset for how their character will be roleplayed. Add on the fact that you have "gone to school" to learn your subclass and that you "read books and scrolls" to find magic... all that evokes a definite feel as well. Whereas the sorcerer subclasses... you're looking at someone who has magic but cannot control it, or one who is directly descended from dragons, or who is empowered by the Weave as it moves about the storms, or is infused by the power of the Shadowfell, etc. etc. etc.
If those descriptions and fluff and story actually mean something to you and you use them as a foundation for who your character is... you will most certainly have a different feeling about playing a wizard versus playing a sorcerer. And there's something to be said about that.
The essence and feel of roleplaying a wizard is markedly different than that of a sorcerer.
If all you are going to do is look at game mechanics for how best to interact with the game part of D&D (which is fine if that's what you and your table care about)... then perhaps the wizard will seem like the weaker sibling of the sorcerer (especially if combat is a heavy focus and you just need someone throwing damaging spells around every turn.)
But if you going to look at your character from a character perspective... who they are, what their background is, what they enjoy, how they behave... I don't think anyone would say the roleplaying essence of a wizard is the same-but-weaker version of the sorcerer. I mean just having that high INT already gets a player into a particular mindset for how their character will be roleplayed. Add on the fact that you have "gone to school" to learn your subclass and that you "read books and scrolls" to find magic... all that evokes a definite feel as well. Whereas the sorcerer subclasses... you're looking at someone who has magic but cannot control it, or one who is directly descended from dragons, or who is empowered by the Weave as it moves about the storms, or is infused by the power of the Shadowfell, etc. etc. etc.
If those descriptions and fluff and story actually mean something to you and you use them as a foundation for who your character is... you will most certainly have a different feeling about playing a wizard versus playing a sorcerer. And there's something to be said about that.
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