World of Greyhawk Folio - 30 years on

[Jacob Marley]

The "counter arguments" require a considerable number of assumptions that are not supported in the material. Glaciation? What glaciation? Where are the glacial features?

What is the Land of Black Ice?

And, how exactly do you explain that rivers ONLY run east of the mountains and not west of the Hellfurnaces and Crystalmist Mountains? What, there's some sort of bizarre tilting to the world that ensures that water never runs west?

You mean the area that was affected by the Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colorless Fire? The area now referred to as the Dry Steppes and Sea of Dust? Even then there is an exception, the lake located in Hex O6, 14 & 15 is the headwaters of a river flowing west.

People refuted ONE off hand point that I made, and that refutation requires information (that the river starts on some sort of plateau not marked on the map) that only exists in people's imagination.

Actually, in the 1983 Boxed Set, under the description of the Nyr Dyv, it specifically states that the Velverdyva is an inlet of the lake. One can deduce, logically, that the elevation of the land surrounding the Tiger and Wolf Nomads must be higher than the land surrounding Furyondy and so on. The only assumption made here is water flows from higher to lower.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Sigh, look, I'll admit, I'm not a geographer, so, I could easily be wrong.

I am a geographer. I had much more problems with the map in my when I glanced at it in my childhood than I do now. If I could have drawn it I would have clarified things and drawn some things a bit different. In fact I had an old project to redraw the Flanaess region-by-region in Photoshop with far more clarity than Darlene's map displayed. They were once hosted on Canonfire!, I think they have been removed . . . I should get around to getting them on an image hosting site myself some day . . . that, and finishing the project!

The "counter arguments" require a considerable number of assumptions that are not supported in the material. Glaciation? What glaciation? Where are the glacial features?

At the scale the Darlene map was drawn, what would you consider cartographic evidence of glaciation?

And, how exactly do you explain that rivers ONLY run east of the mountains and not west of the Hellfurnaces and Crystalmist Mountains? What, there's some sort of bizarre tilting to the world that ensures that water never runs west?

I know, it's some form of superwind that blows all the rivers that way.

Oh, oh, oh, I know. A wizard did it. Guess that makes it all better then.

Well, the Twin Cataclysms are "a wizard did it" in its purest form.

But we can go back to the natural geography and still accept what we see. We have prevailing winds blowing East to West in Greyhawk rather than what we experience as West to East. Prevailing winds meeting a high mountain range leave behind a rain shadow. For example, asking why there are no major rivers off the western side of the Hellfurnaces/Crystalmists is like wondering why there are no many major rivers flowing into Nevada from the eastern side of the Sierra Nevada mountains?

 

[Mortellan]

In fact I had an old project to redraw the Flanaess region-by-region in Photoshop with far more clarity than Darlene's map displayed. They were once hosted on Canonfire!, I think they have been removed . . . I should get around to getting them on an image hosting site myself some day . . . that, and finishing the project!

Eric, as a current "fixture" at Canonfire, I know of at least a couple maps of yours that are still accessable on CF, a Pomarj map .zip collection and the jpg of your Bandit Kingdom-Shield Lands region. I'm not 100% sure but I think some of your other larger zip file collections may have inadvertantly got lost from the server. How this happened is not my arena, but I do know CF does not just remove content intentionally. We're trying to fix broken links and missing files currently (check your PM). Also though its been years, I can vouch that people still talk about your maps and wonder what you've been up to. If you ever did decide to host them elsewhere or continue the project I for one would promote them.

 

[Beginning of the End]

People refuted ONE off hand point that I made,

(re-reads thread; notes that all of Hussar's points have been refuted)

and that refutation requires information (that the river starts on some sort of plateau not marked on the map) that only exists in people's imagination.

(re-reads thread; notes people quoting from the original gazetteer among other sources)

Did facts kill your parents or something? Is there a reason why you hate them so much?

You don't like the map? That's fine. Everybody's entitled to an opinion. But you are saying things which are factually untrue, and then trying to back them up by saying even more stuff which is factually untrue. And then, when you're called on all of that, you respond by typing stuff so blatantly untrue that anyone hitting the PAGE UP key will notice that you're just making it up on the fly.

And that you're going to get called on. (Repeatedly apparently.)

 

[scruffygrognard]

I am a geographer. I had much more problems with the map in my when I glanced at it in my childhood than I do now. If I could have drawn it I would have clarified things and drawn some things a bit different. In fact I had an old project to redraw the Flanaess region-by-region in Photoshop with far more clarity than Darlene's map displayed. They were once hosted on Canonfire!, I think they have been removed . . . I should get around to getting them on an image hosting site myself some day . . . that, and finishing the project!

As someone who has downloaded those maps I beg you to finish that project!

I love those maps and even had your map of the Nyr Dyv region printed and framed. It hangs prominently in my Den of Geeking.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I'm not 100% sure but I think some of your other larger zip file collections may have inadvertantly got lost from the server. How this happened is not my arena, but I do know CF does not just remove content intentionally. We're trying to fix broken links and missing files currently (check your PM).

That's about what I figured. Not atypical from the normal operation of long term websites.

Also though its been years, I can vouch that people still talk about your maps and wonder what you've been up to. If you ever did decide to host them elsewhere or continue the project I for one would promote them.

As someone who has downloaded those maps I beg you to finish that project!

I love those maps and even had your map of the Nyr Dyv region printed and framed. It hangs prominently in my Den of Geeking.

I can't express how much these notes of praise mean. cperkins, how large did you print it out as?

 

[Hussar]

BOTE - your "facts" are pretty questionable. For example, in your "re-readings" of the thread, did you miss the part where I repeatedly stated that this is a good map? Just because I can nit-pick a map doesn't make it a bad map.

And, I totally agree that these are nit-picks. I certainly don't care and certainly would never expect any player to care about this. It's minor crap that would never come up in game.

See, the problem that I have is that BOTE is correct and these are the gold standard of fantasy maps. That's saying far more about the state of fantasy maps, where people just shrug and move on, than on any sort of standard that's being followed.

Eric Anondson - did you do these maps ghmaps - maps ? Those are absolutely frigging gorgeous maps. Fan Freaking TASTIC.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Eric Anondson - did you do these maps ghmaps - maps ?

Those are very nice, but those aren't mine.

 

[scruffygrognard]

I can't express how much these notes of praise mean. cperkins, how large did you print it out as?

I'm at work, so I can't accurate dimensions but I'd say that it's around 36"x24". I sent the file to Megaprint in New Hampshire and they did a beautiful job of printing it (for a reasonable price). This was last October, so I'm not sure of the price and the website doesn't have an option to check old orders. I'm guessing that it cost about $40 to print.

When I get home I'll snap a cell-phone picture and see if I can post it.

 

[Hussar]

Those are very nice, but those aren't mine.

Ahh, sorry. I'm afraid I don't think I've seen yours though, but, now I'm interested.

It sounds like you've got a fair bit more experience with these maps than I do though. What are your thoughts? Are my quibbles completely off base and easily explained by the facts? Are there issues that I'm missing? Or, is BOTE correct and this should be the gold standard by which all fantasy maps should be judged?

On a completely side note. Why is criticising something equated with hating it? I mean, I actually stated repeatedly that I like this map. I really, really do. I just don't think it's the best map out there.

What's wrong with thinking a map can be better?