WotBS (conversion to Pathfinder) OOC

Dragonwriter

First Post
I dislike the whole eidolon class feature right off the top. Having a second character who doesn't die? And an eidolon is more a character than a companion or familiar.

I have to take a bit of issue with this... It is summoned, therefore it doesn't die. No different from a Druid casting Summon Nature's Ally and spamming it. And if it is "killed", it can come back, just like a Druid getting a new Animal Companion. Except the eidolon takes healing resources to get it to full strength, while the AC takes a little time. It's a trade-off.

And unlike a Druid with an Animal Companion, I cannot spam my Summons as long as my Eidolon is around - or ever, unless I waste one of my precious, limited spells known on the Summon spell.

So what if it's more like a character? I take it, because it has personality and intelligence? It's no different than the Leadership feat. It's also able to enhance the characters and the RP, given something with a clearly-alien perspective.

The rules say that you summon a powerful outsider - yet it doesn't say that an eidolon gains outsider traits.

The outsider traits are in some cases granted automatically (Darkvision), or are evolutions (weapon proficiency). It is fairly well called out as an Outsider.

So I think it is more a mix of both. They are already quite powerful so giving them the ability not to need to eat or sleep a little over the top and would like to play them as native in this sense.

They're really no more powerful (and are really a lot less powerful) than a Wild Shape-ing, Summon-spamming Druid. Very little is up to such a bar. :erm:

Maybe it is something that comes about due to the nature of the special bond between summoner and eidolon. They do share magical item slots and have a life link.

This I can get behind. And also contributed to the reason I asked.

The rules are very unclear here so I will rule that eidolons need to eat and sleep (i.e. go back to their home plane) as it wouldn't effect play to much. The fire forest is something different, in the long run it will have little effect.

HM

The eidolon isn't around when the Summoner sleeps, so it does "sleep" then, so to speak. Like I said, I can get behind the reasoning of "through the connection to the Summoner, it has these foibles". Perhaps in a future update/errata, Paizo will clarify this issue.
(Just to clarify the above, I am accepting your ruling. The rest is presenting an alternative and a rebuttal to some of your claims.)

Walking Dad said:
If he needs to eat... sorry dragonwriter I would say, keep him unsummoned and use the summon monster ability that only works as long as he isn't summoned...

I understand the reasoning on this, but I disagree. He's a boon in combat (attacks/damage, Trip, AC) and scouting (good Perception and Stealth). And really, what would you say if I suggested you not have a familiar, thereby giving up class features you/we need? A well-built eidolon is generally more useful in and out of combat than a familiar...
(I'm not actually asking you to do so, merely speaking hypothetically.)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

HolyMan

Thy wounds are healed!
I think my biggest difference between something being a companion and another character is the INT factor. Animal companions need to be handled and trained. And in combat they shouldn't know to much about tactics and such like an eidolon would.

INT 2 or less compared to INT 7 to me means the eidolon is more it's own character and not just a "helper"

There are a lot of trade offs that make an animal companion almost even with an eidolon as it looks they tried to keep them about the same. I say they are a second character due mainly to the INT factor. So they stay around even as they progress but in combat an eidolon gets the advantage as it can think for itself and knows some tactics.

DW said:
And unlike a Druid with an Animal Companion, I cannot spam my Summons as long as my Eidolon is around - or ever, unless I waste one of my precious, limited spells known on the Summon spell.

Druids and Summoners will probably not be alike in combat unless they are built the same way. A summoner gets abilities a druid doesn't and vice versa. So they come out even as they should and you have to play the tactics you decided on when you made the character. What I am trying to say is you could build a summon spamming Summoner just as easily as a Druid could (with the added bonus of less casting time) based on your feat and spell selections.

The question becomes what type of character do you wish to play and then which class is better for the chosen type. One class should be a little better than others in an area of combat style - You could play a greatsword wielding Wizard who fights like a meatshield (mage armor, shield, heroism, enlarge, falselife) but a fighter is much (much) better at that role.

My thing is eidolons vs companions and familiars. Maybe for me it has always been that the latter two always seem add ons that are used here and there by the character and the eidolon seems to be a separate entity from the character.

HM
 

Walking Dad

First Post
Actually the Eidolon (an outsider, there is an alternate class feature in Inner Sea Magic that says it changes the Eidolons type from Outsider to Fey... so it is indirectly spelled out) is powerful because the summoner... sucks. Less spells, who are less powerful and his summon monster ability only works when the Eidolon is not there...

The problem is that 'our' summoner rolled really good stats so he became a good combatant in it's own right. This is practically impossible with point buy.
 

Dragonwriter

First Post
I think my biggest difference between something being a companion and another character is the INT factor. Animal companions need to be handled and trained. And in combat they shouldn't know to much about tactics and such like an eidolon would.

Their masters can easily direct them. And they get access to the tricks, which can make them far more useful early-on than an eidolon. A Druid can practically automatically start with an AC trained as a mount, while an eidolon must spend an evolution on it.

There are a lot of trade offs that make an animal companion almost even with an eidolon as it looks they tried to keep them about the same. I say they are a second character due mainly to the INT factor. So they stay around even as they progress but in combat an eidolon gets the advantage as it can think for itself and knows some tactics.

I'm curious as to where you get the notion animals don't use/know tactics. Have you ever watched a wolf-focused nature program? They clearly demonstrate flanking, hit-and-run and attrition-based tactics. Prowling lions also make the tactical decision to run down the weak or sick. Animals, particularly predatory ones (which most of the Animal Companions are), are quite intelligent hunters.

Druids and Summoners will probably not be alike in combat unless they are built the same way. A summoner gets abilities a druid doesn't and vice versa. So they come out even as they should and you have to play the tactics you decided on when you made the character.

Eh, far from it... Druids get their higher-level spells faster, get Wild Shape (providing a bonus to AC and stats, while retaining casting with a feat), and end up with 9th-level spells. Summoner gets some class features pertaining to the eidolon and the Summon SLA, which eventually becomes Gate-able, and that's the most-powerful ability he has. Gate is fairly potent, but using it to summon a creature in battle carries a cost well beyond just using the SLA.

What I am trying to say is you could build a summon spamming Summoner just as easily as a Druid could (with the added bonus of less casting time) based on your feat and spell selections.

Again, far from it. My Summon SLA grants me less time spent summoning and longer duration, sure, but I can only have 1 use of it active (note: I'm going by baseline Summoner, not the ACFs). The Druid can just cast and cast and cast... The Summoner can learn Summon Monster as a Spell Known, but I say again, it eats one of the precious few Spells Known and then I'm on the same page for casting as a Druid - same time, same duration - and I never can get Summon Monster 9 on my Spells Known.

The question becomes what type of character do you wish to play and then which class is better for the chosen type. One class should be a little better than others in an area of combat style - You could play a greatsword wielding Wizard who fights like a meatshield (mage armor, shield, heroism, enlarge, falselife) but a fighter is much (much) better at that role.

Oh I understand there's trade-offs, believe me. What I'm saying is the "trade-offs" leave Summoner in the dust compared to the classes most-capable of doing what he does without the eidolon. I think I've already pointed out how much Druid kicks Summoner ass (and still can kick Fighter ass, just not as badly as it did in 3.5). Wizards seem easier to keep up with, but they get Scrolls-making and their vast spells known, making them hard to keep up with, too. And let's not forget 9th-level Spells.
See, a Summoner's spells, even with a high CHA (which mine is not), top off at 6th-level Spells. His big guns are much easier to negate/avoid because their DC will be 3 points lower. So his big, powerful spells are spent on largely... well, a collection of oddball spells that don't really seem to fit the class all that well, IMO.

My thing is eidolons vs companions and familiars. Maybe for me it has always been that the latter two always seem add ons that are used here and there by the character and the eidolon seems to be a separate entity from the character.

HM

I think considering familiars and eidolons should be left in completely separate categories. A Sor/Wiz does not send the familiar into combat. Eidolons have much more in common with animal companions, except for one thing. The Druid does not need the animal companion to remain a potent class. The Summoner needs the eidolon to be a potent class, particularly in an AP as savage as WotBS.

And Walking Dad pointed out something important - the stats I rolled. Which, by the way, came out very odd, IMO. As they did for pretty much everyone... 7d6 and an 11 is the result?
I had not expected Barrik to become a combatant. I expected to be a support-caster with a front-line pet. Instead, I got rolls saying 'go fight', and couldn't really change a thing about them. So I tweaked my concept a bit to go with the stats I had received and went where I was intending to go in the first place.

Personally, coming from a view with a lot of entrenchment in 3.5 mechanics, I think the Summoner is a fairly good class. It's about on-par with a Bard without the stigma attached to the performer. But it is still easily outshone by Cleric, Wizard and especially Druid. Even a decent Sorcerer could show-up a Summoner, if that Summoner doesn't have the eidolon.
 


HolyMan

Thy wounds are healed!
hmmm... maybe that is why I dislike the eidolon feature so much. By your assessment it is not the character that makes the class as in normal cases. Without the eidolon the summoner is a weak combatant and support character.

I guess I need to start looking at it from the view that without the eidolon what can a summoner really do. Have to readjust my thinking on how this class works it is not like others.

HM
 

Dragonwriter

First Post
If putting class versus class, the Eidolon would HAVE to be included, imho.

I made the comment of 'without the eidolon' in large part due to my points about the Druid and its animal companion. You can ditch the AC and leave the Druid still going strong. Take away the eidolon, and the Summoner is without its central class feature.

hmmm... maybe that is why I dislike the eidolon feature so much. By your assessment it is not the character that makes the class as in normal cases. Without the eidolon the summoner is a weak combatant and support character.

I guess I need to start looking at it from the view that without the eidolon what can a summoner really do. Have to readjust my thinking on how this class works it is not like others.

HM

Perhaps... It is a class reliant on one class feature above all. Without the eidolon, the Summoner is far less a class than it should be. Now the character behind the class still does have significant pull and influence - after all, no two eidolons should really be alike. But without the eidolon, Summoners lose out on a lot of stuff.
You can even look at the other class features. Shield Ally, the one I got this level, is dependent on me being right next to the eidolon in order to gain the benefit. The rest of the class features are also all built to rely on the eidolon and/or its evolutions.

It's a class with a central design feature and not a lot of room elsewhere. Remove the eidolon, and you've got a class weaker than the Bard. Or possibly even the Monk :p
 

Fangor the Fierce

First Post
Update - chose my two level 2 spells.

Invisibility, just because it will be my first time ever taking it.
Secondly, I decided on Castigate instead of Hold Person. Reason is that it is any creature, not limited to humanoid. It is close range, instead of medium range like Hold Person. Also, if they do pass the DC 16 Will save, they are still shaken for one round, where Hold Person would simply fail.

And, it would help out the rogue, as it cowers, meaning he is denied his Dex bonus as well as frozen in fear, can't act, and -2 to AC. Perfect for a sneak attack!

Also, if nobody else is taking items, there is still a lot left over in the tower.

2 masterwork composite longbows (Str +1) - Aaron will take 1 if nobody will
200 arrows, - Aaron takes 20
2 masterwork shortswords - ???
2 masterwork longswords - ???
2 daggers - ???
2 masterwork chain shirts - Aaron takes 1, Torrent takes other
holy symbol - ???
journal of Bhurisrava - ???
area map (not portable but can be recalled from memory by a PC)
alchemist's lab, portable - ???
2 antitoxin - ???
2 weapon blanch, silver - ???
2 weapon blanch, cold iron - ??? (Aaron has Cold Iron weapon already)
bloodblock - ???
antiplague - ???
materials for creating potions (100gp) - ???
materials for creating scrolls/transcribing spells (150gp) - ???
7 dream seeds - ???

Adding Silver Light Mace to list for anyone, if Barrik refuses it.
 

Walking Dad

First Post
Fantalass will happily share the scroll scribing material between Spirit and himself, but he isn't strong enough to carry much more.

Alchemist lab could be really useful, but see above :(
 

Songdragon

Explorer
Marda would gathers up the swords and adds them to the others...

2 masterwork shortswords - 4 lbs
2 masterwork longswords - 8 lbs
2 antitoxin
antiplague
bloodblock
holy symbol
2 weapon blanch, silver
2 weapon blanch, cold iron

portable lab - 20 lbs

+ 12.0 lbs
+ 177.5 lbs (stuff already carried)
+20.0

---------------
209.50

(max weight is 230 lbs)

Marda will look at Fantalas, "If at the end of our buesiness here, we have the room, I will take your lab for you... but you will sooooo owe me." she winks at the elf...
 

Remove ads

Top