WotC sayz "People don't use rituals much" - O RLY?

[Windjammer]

A surprising tweet from the GenCon Q&A on the future of D&D (thanks to bloghofholding):

no rituals in mordenkainen['s emporium, a 4E item supplement]. they think people are not using rituals much and are thinking about new ways to price them.

How does this not amount to a great combo of self fulfilling prophecy and closed feedback loop?

To explain, IF rituals are removed from the revamped Players handbooks then OF COURSE new players won't use them. Heck, no one at D&D Encounters will use them, because there only characters without rituals are legitimate to play.

Which brings us to closed feedback loops. Some time ago Mearls said in a podcast that they stopped producing story heavy modules because RPGA DMs (often pressed for prep time) wouldn't download and run these.

That's a golden illustration of drawing the wrong conclusion based on a wrong set of data. Of course RPGA DMs short on time would much more gladly run hackfest #657 than a prep heavy.

You know what that got us? 3 years of delve modules, and only these, with a story so shallow you couldn't even wet your toes in, nevermind that 90% of D&D customers are not RPGA DMs pressed for time.

A similar example of closed feedback loop, and well documented on this board, is how WotC concluded, after not providing any Epic level support, that no one plays Epic levels and so they should not support it.

And now it looks they are drawing the same type of conclusion about rituals. 'We are not putting rituals back in, because, after we left them out, they don't see much use.' Brilliant!

To take stock, based on the same shoddy reasoning WotC removed story heavy modules, epic level support, and rituals support from the game - some of the most fascinating aspects of 4E in the first place (at least the last two, having initially made epic level play and utility magic quite appealing).

And, that's a last gripe, but to me it ties in to the matter raised. I have a very strong impression that 4E is NOT in good hands right now, that R&D does NOT know where they are going with it, and, most importantly, that no WORK is being done.

Back in September 2010 Mearls said in an interview,

If you are a disgruntled D&D fan, there’s nothing I can say to you that undoes whatever happened two years ago or a year ago that made you disgruntled – but what I can do, what’s within my power, is that going forward, I can make products, I can design game material, I can listen to what you’re saying, and I can do what I can do with design to make you happy again; to get back to that core of what makes D&D, D&D;

How's that not a set of empty promises? Where is that design work for 4E? Well, behold these gem of another GenCon twitter entry:

When Mike got his job, he tried to read every 1-star review of 4e PHB and then every 5- star review.

Said they've learned the lesson that you can't push people into D&D as a surprise. So very important to work for fans.

On Legends & Lore: Mike rarely designs anymore, so as head of D&D R&D it's his way to explore the game from all angles.

I'm seriously pissed. The stewardship of D&D is in the hands of people who think the most interesting aspects of the game don't deserve support, and of people who promised to deliver ACTUAL design and then come out saying they don't have much time for design anymore.

 

[Colmarr]

I don't think the tweet you quoted supports your *cough* rant *cough*.

They said "they think people are not using rituals much and are thinking about new ways to price them. "

That's an acknowledgement of a problem and an indication of attempts at a solution.

 

[Echohawk]

How does this not amount to a great combo of self fulfilling prophecy and closed feedback loop?

A similar example of closed feedback loop, and well documented on this board, is how WotC concluded, after not providing any Epic level support, that no one plays Epic levels and so they should not support it.

I'm afraid that I think you may be doing a similar thing you are accusing WotC of doing, which is reaching conclusions based on incomplete information.

I think it is a fair bet that WotC can quite easily monitor the number of characters built using the online character builder which (a) use rituals, and (b) are of epic level. I doubt very much that they are reaching conclusions about those aspects of the game in a complete vacuum.

Also, as Colmarr noted, it isn't as if they have announced an intention to stop supporting epic levels or rituals completely. Instead they are acknowledging that these are areas of the game which probably need a bit of a rethink.

 

[GreyLord]

I'm afraid that I think you may be doing a similar thing you are accusing WotC of doing, which is reaching conclusions based on incomplete information.

I think it is a fair bet that WotC can quite easily monitor the number of characters built using the online character builder which (a) use rituals, and (b) are of epic level. I doubt very much that they are reaching conclusions about those aspects of the game in a complete vacuum.

Also, as Colmarr noted, it isn't as if they have announced an intention to stop supporting epic levels or rituals completely. Instead they are acknowledging that these are areas of the game which probably need a bit of a rethink.

I agree with the original poster to a degree. WoTC never supported Rituals as much as they could have. Rituals were able to become the most powerful magic available, with the most varied differences between them. WotC could have come out with a book of Rituals, or even half of some core book could have been with the possibilities of Rituals.

Instead they've only seemed to tack on Rituals as an afterthought, when they've actually included rituals.

Where was the Rituals for becoming all sorts of different Undead and the various necromatic rituals which could have been expanded upon greatly in Open Grave. How about all the different planes type rituals you could have made in the various Planes books.

I think people don't use rituals as much because WotC has always treated Rituals as an afterthought instead of a main idea of magic.

 

[Echohawk]

I agree with the original poster to a degree

Me too, actually, but also only to a degree.

I think the situation is more:
1. Rituals (and to a lesser extent epic tier adventuring) weren't very well developed in the first place.
2. Hence people have tended not to use those parts of the game much.
3. Because they don't see so much use, WotC hasn't supported them very well.
4. WotC have now acknowledged that those are problem areas and plan to fix them before adding more support.

Rather than:
1. WotC has not provided much support for rituals (or epic tier).
2. Therefore those aspects of the game don't see as much use in play.

I'd also like to see more support for epic tier and rituals, but frankly, I'd prefer that WotC take a good look at why those bits of the game don't work so well and tweak them, rather than churn out more support for them before fixing them.

 

[Windjammer]

I think it is a fair bet that WotC can quite easily monitor the number of characters built using the online character builder which (a) use rituals, and (b) are of epic level. I doubt very much that they are reaching conclusions about those aspects of the game in a complete vacuum.

I didn't say 'vacuum', I spoke of a feedback loop that's closed. So there is feedback going on, but I doubt its being representative.

Take D&D Encounters. Even if characters with ritual casting were legitimate to play (which they are not) there would be little point in buildling one, as the whole program is designed around playing one encounter per time. The vast majority of ritual magic is deliberately designed in a way that happens outside encounters.

So you can look at a 100% of characters on the online Character Builder designed for D&D Encounters, and still not draw a valid conclusion about how widespread ritual magic is. It would be like concluding that people don't like to play clerics, or invest in expensive magic items and metal weapons, after an Encounters season of Dark Sun only.

Ditto for epic level play. How many modules can you name which WotC produced for its organized play format in the last three years?

And the second part of my post is about backing up one's promises with words. WotC has said time and again that they'd support epic level play, that they are aware of the issue and what not. And then they come out with a release schedule which pegs 3 out of 3 campaign settings this year in heroic tier play. And to see re-pricing extant rituals as a way of "supporting rituals", let alone an adequate way thereof, admittedly requires more charity or optimism than I can muster.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I find as a DM I don't like a lot of rituals. It's just easier to avoid problems if the ritual used to be a 3.x spell. The ritual Hunter's Tune, for instance, drives me up the wall.

I also think players simply pay less attention to them than to character abilities in general. If you're not thinking about them, you're not using them.

 

[rjfTrebor]

I find as a DM I don't like a lot of rituals. It's just easier to avoid problems if the ritual used to be a 3.x spell. The ritual Hunter's Tune, for instance, drives me up the wall.

I also think players simply pay less attention to them than to character abilities in general. If you're not thinking about them, you're not using them.

i agree, as it is now rituals are cumbersome and expensive. none of the groups im in ever bother with them.

 

[Kzach]

The biggest problem with rituals, IMO, is the expense. Nobody wants to dump money on expendables. Hell, IME, parties rarely want to even buy healing potions, let alone dump money on alchemical supplies, scrolls (other than the obligatory cure disease/curse and resurrection) and rituals.

Actually, that's not true. The biggest problem is that aside from a few key rituals, none of them provide anything so valuable as to spend huge amounts of gold on. There are better ways to do almost everything a ritual can do. So it's not so much the expense, it's the return on investment that's poor.

Personally I don't see what's wrong with making most rituals free. Those that use material components, like to make pots, scrolls, magic items, etc. can cost the required amount, but the ones that are just convenience should only have an initial cost to purchase and learn. Of course, this would make scrolls almost redundant, but I'm ok with that.

 

[SparqMan]

As a DM, it is difficult for me to find opportunities for players to use rituals that don't feel completely planned. It almost always feels like there is a big sign reading "NOW IS THE TIME TO USE YOUR MAKE WHOLE RITUAL. I DID THIS FOR YOU!".