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Would this solve the "grind" issue?

Dungeon Masta

First Post
I think that the OP had it largely correct for speeding up encounters. More skirmishers, with 1 soldier or 2 brutes in the encounter. I find that I rarely like to include monsters with regen or healing because they take so long to kill and that regen usually comes with a hit to damage. Hit the PCs hard and fast, and force them to react quickly, rather than allowing the defenders to just trade hits with monsters.

Dangerous terrain is also a great way to speed up combat, as long as the PCs get the hint. Unfortunately, sometimes the "hint" takes the form of a monster bullrushing a wizard and a rogue into a magma vent :)

Other ideas are dropping everything to 1/2 HP, including the PCs. Also, I prefer NPCs to rout if the PCs are already winning. "Mopping up" after the outcome of a combat is already clear is the definition of grind. You can turn that last idea on its head by having some monsters rout and bring a couple of their big bad friends.
 

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Chzbro

First Post
While I wouldn't say my group is super-optimized, it is a party of epic level characters.

Two of us were stunned in round 1. That sucked, but on round 2 my bard dropped Fragment of the Song (which is part of his epic destiny) and allows anyone who spends an action point to gain 2 extra standard actions instead of 1--this is what facilitated the 300 damage round from the rogue. Edit: And as keterys said, when I spent my action point, not only did I get 2 extra attacks (which also gave my allies extra attacks), I also gave all my allies +7 to hit and +7 damage to each of their attacks until the end of my next turn. Sadly, I had already used the attack that grants an ally 4 basic attacks, but we made out alright that round anyway.

Now admittedly this isn't us dropping at-wills, but at epic, it's not really that crazy of a round. It does skew the averages though. But then again, it seems like at epic everyone does something that skews the averages.

Our wizard has no stun-lock cheese, but he did manage to knock the elite out of the fight on round 1, and we had Yeenoghu dazed or stunned from round 2 on.

And as for the two minute turns...well, I admit that does seem fast. I might have been off by 5 minutes or so, I guess, but I know we started the fight at 5 (we end the game at 6) and finished the fight at about a quarter of.

I'm very aware that this particular example is somewhat extreme, but I also DM a 4-5th level game with 6 players and (barring some extra time due to extra players/opponents), we don't see excessively long fights in that game either. We can very easily get 4 combat encounters + skill challenges + roleplay in a 6 hour session (we are, admittedly, a more combat-heavy group than many others, but it's far from our lone game activity).

But of course none of this proves anything. These are just anecdotal examples, and I don't expect them to change your mind. I'm not sure anything I can say will. But I don't think extrapolating the base math of the game into an argument about how long a fight will take proves grind either. Whether anyone's game plays out like mine did or not is irrelevant; it's a near certainty that it won't play out with everyone missing half the time and dealing average damage for at-wills either.

I find it kind of odd that I have to defend that I don't experience grind. I've played with a lot of people, and while I know that my group and I are more organized and prepared than some my GenCon LFR experiences lead me to believe we're not "better players" than most. Perhaps we just define grind differently. I know to some, ANY combat in 4E is a grind. However, I like 4E and I like the combats. It's only grind to me if the combat drags on with no real threat to the players--and threatening to eat up a couple more resources doesn't count as a threat; you ought to wonder if someone might go down.

(Quick aside: our heroic tier games tend to be pretty dangerous for PCs, but this slowly goes away as we advance in level. One of my dissatisfactions with 4E is that so far at epic nothing's even come close to putting a serious scare into us. But then, we've only played a few sessions of epic from a published adventure. As a DM, I'm not happy with a 4E encounter until I look at it and say, "Dang, I probably overdid it on this one...I hope I don't kill anyone." But that's really a lot harder to judge at epic; every tier needs a new evaluation rubric for how dangerous it is, I think. Demon lords should be scary and should not die in four rounds.)
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
Yes, this type of thing can happen.

If the DM wants to set up a cardboard mega-villain to be wiped in 4 rounds.

But, if the DM wants to challenge the players, the DM knows of all of these abilities of the PCs. He doesn't have to have specific counters against them, he just needs to play the villains smart with some simple techniques.

PCs cannot do 1000 hit points each (actually most PCs cannot do that anyway, even at 26th level without being super optimized) if the villain doesn't just stand in front of them to get hit.

The creature is for all intents and purposes a god. Allowing him to be killed in 4 rounds by fighting the PCs up close is, IMO, inferior DMing. He shouldn't be just a bunch of stats from Dragon magazine, he should have traps and magic items and escape routes and henchmen that give their lives for him. He should significantly separate the PCs so that their x range multi-PC buff powers affect fewer PCs cause they are out of range and so that he can teleport across massively large areas in order to focus fire on a single PC. If the PC Leader does not give the PC Striker a chance to attack 5 times in a round with bonuses, then the Striker will be doing less damage.

The moment Yeenoghu's half damaged is the moment he should be gone, coming back with reinforcements that really challenge the players. Baphomet has been trying to kill Yeenoghu for many millennium and the PCs waltz in and wipe him in 4 rounds using the same combinations and powers that they have been using for several levels. The DM knows their abilities and the foes he is sending against them. He should know how quickly the PCs can kick butt and how many points of damage they can dish out per round, regardless of whether they are super optimized or not.

Play him like a 2nd level grunt Hobgoblin if you all like, but Yeenoghu has an Int of 21 and has millennium of experience. He should outmaneuver the PCs easily. That includes arranging it so that their mega-damage rounds are less effective.

And it also means that Yeenoghu never even bothers using his Triple Flail attack except for Opportunity Attacks. Even Hyena Strike combined with Ribbons of Flesh is a joke set of actions at Epic. 55 average points of damage against two PCs, that is if both attacks hit, at level 26 is a total waste of time. The Rogue does 300 points in a turn, but the Villain only average 110 and that not against a single PC?

PCs do have a lot of serious firepower at Epic levels, especially if the DM allows them to work as a close unit team. To challenge them, the DM has to have epiphanies in his challenges. Otherwise, it's 4 rounds of "Wow, we killed a god. Next.". And the Encounter XP charts in the DMG fall apart at high Paragon and Epic levels if the DM doesn't play the villains smart. As written, there are extremely few Epic level creatures that are any serious challenge for similar level PCs. The DM has to take that extra set of steps to make it more difficult with the exact same encounter foes for the players.

The villains have to minimize the number of attacks that the PCs can do against them and maximize their own attacks. This is what the players are doing. The players have (typically) had many levels and many encounters to improve their tactics. The DM has to put the work in to have his villains have the same set of advantages (be that tactics, terrain, magic items, allies and/or whatever), otherwise, the synergy of the PC abilities will win out nearly every time.

Yes, 4 26th level PCs can do a lot of damage. I just find it odd that the DM allowed them to do so. That was approximately an N+5 encounter if the soldier was level 26. That's 83,000 XP for 4 26th level PC or more than 20% of a level gained each in 45 minutes in 4 rounds, especially with it not being the first encounter of the day. Something is wrong with that. It should have been an Epic fight. Not 45 minutes and 4 rounds. I'm surprised that other people don't see that.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
And as for the two minute turns...well, I admit that does seem fast. I might have been off by 5 minutes or so, I guess, but I know we started the fight at 5 (we end the game at 6) and finished the fight at about a quarter of.

Two minute turns per creature seems slow, not fast. In our group of 6 PCs fighting 6 NPCs, that would be 24 minutes per turn total. If the encounter went out to 6 rounds, that would be a 2.5 hour encounter.

With the soldier being taken out in round 1, that was even more than 2 minutes per average in your game.

I'm very aware that this particular example is somewhat extreme, but I also DM a 4-5th level game with 6 players and (barring some extra time due to extra players/opponents), we don't see excessively long fights in that game either. We can very easily get 4 combat encounters + skill challenges + roleplay in a 6 hour session (we are, admittedly, a more combat-heavy group than many others, but it's far from our lone game activity).

Odd. I don't see this at all. Our 6 person group is lucky to get 2 full encounters in within 5 hours, let alone 4 in 6.

I do think that I challenge my players more than some DMs do though. I hit them on Sunday with the 6600 XP Forge encounter of out Revenge of the Giants and the players were concerned by round 3 because most of the PCs were 3/4ths damaged and I had just slide the Cleric 3 squares away so that she could not do her Readied Word of Vigor. That is an N-1/2 encounter for 6 15th level PCs, but they were still worried. Instead of a lower than their level cake walk encounter, they had 3 foes doing area effects on them, one of whom was immobilizing them. I didn't change the foes or the terrain at all, I just played the foes as if they were fighting for their lives. Not just a bunch of foes that the PCs can focus fire on.

Note: I also give the PCs the Expertise feats for free, so at level 15, they are +2 to hit with all attacks over core rules.

But I do see what you see. As the PCs get higher level, the encounters actually get easier for them due to the plethora of abilities and powers and synergies that this brings to the table.

The DM has to work at giving similar sets of synergies to his NPCs, or the PCs will waltz all over encounters, especially at higher levels.

If he does that, the encounters should get longer. If someone measures grind by how long an encounter lasts (45 minutes or 1.5 hours or 2.5 hours), then challenging higher level PCs is more grindy in 4E than just throwing foes at them based on XP charts from the DMG.
 


Mesh Hong

First Post
Well this thread has moved on a bit.

Epic level PCs are literally Epic. There is not much they can’t do if they set their minds to it. The middle world pretty much becomes their play thing, those people that have heard of them should generally know better than to oppose them (and would be better off trying to help them) and those people that don’t know them are going to regret it and pay for their ignorance.

Even the planes have much to fear from Epic PCs, and as the PCs hit mid Epic the list of possible threats starts to get smaller and smaller until you suddenly realise that this small group of individuals can shift the cosmos with their collective effort. Only the Gods and creatures of similar power have any hope of influencing them. But even the Gods will realise that they have something to lose by meddling with such powerful individuals, so any contact they have with the group could have disastrous consequences.

This of course is where the plot steps in to justify some sort of threat. This is also where Epic destinies really show their significance by adding substance to the threat and adding context to the amount of power that the PCs are wielding (usually as a blunt instrument).

Chzbro; I completely understand that your group can be that powerful and you humiliated a Level 28 solo.

KarinsDad; I completely understand that Yeenoghu is poorly designed as an important Epic solo threat. Epic Solos need to act more than once in a round. They NEED to, just to try and keep up with the PCs level of violence and chained attacks.

The other important thing that Epic enemies have in their arsenal is access to the plot. This may sound a bit crude but take a step back and you will see that this means that they have the experience and opportunity try to manipulate a situation to their advantage. From what they know of their enemies (the PCs).

Plot bad guys should try to divert and manipulate the PCs by working against their power bases or relationships in an attempt to weaken their reputation and support structures.

The most important contextual change in an Epic level campaign is the way that the PCs can literally shape the middle world and influence the cosmos, and the consequences and repercussions of every one of their actions. PCs should be very aware that their actions may change the universe in major or unexpected ways.

An example from my campaign is that the PCs needed a section of an artefact that was held in an important temple of Tiamat, guarded by an Exarch of Tiamat. They went there, destroyed the Exarch and took the fragment, a few days later 3 elder red dragons arrived at their hometown (while they were elsewhere) and raised it to the ground.

When they realised this they returned to the smouldering rubble, killed two of the dragons (one got away), and immediately started preparing to track the dragon back to its family roost and kill all its kin (Something I am sure they are capable of). This is a family of dragons that have been known about since early heroic tier.

They also gathered over 400 wizards and clerics (using their reputation and contacts) and devised a raise dead ritual that brought back 1500 townsfolk in one go. They have subsequently learned that pockets of radiant energy have started to appear in the shadowfell, since they did the ritual.

The group also had a communication from another plot PC who reminded them that they do not have a long time to collect the entire artefact. Which prompted them to put the revenge against the dragons on hold and get on with what they were meant to be doing.

The above is just a quick example that Epic PCs can do anything they want, but every action they take has some sort of consequence. If they then start reacting to the consequences instead of following a plan they can quickly get diverted away from their goals.

Anyway none of this has anything at all to do with grind, other than I suppose that players shouldn’t be concentrating on what they are doing but more why they are doing it.

Grind is in the mind.
 

Ok, I'm really new to 4e, believe it or not. I've played for a bit, but no DMing for me. And, like many here, I've heard a lot about the whole "grind" issue in the game. Not wanting to run into this, a thought occurred to me as I was brainstorming an adventure to write.

In the 4e DMG, under adventure design, it posits that the base unit to use is a soldier or a brute. By and large, the encounter templates were two or three soldier/brutes, with the remainder taken up by the other roles.

What if you shift that? Instead of the front line being soldier brutes, why not use skirmishers? So, the meat and potatoes of any encounter will be skirmishers, with the remainder being taken up by artillery, controllers and the odd brute.

And, as an additional thought, how much affect would it have to make up the xp budget with lower level monsters, but more of them? Instead of five baddies, drop a level or two on the baddies and use seven of them?

Again, avoiding using a majority of brutes/soldiers. But, with a two level drop, the brutes/soldiers go down pretty quickly. Or at least it looks that way on paper.

Would this work? Or would the monsters be totally ineffectual against the party? Does using a couple of levels down nerf the monsters to the point where they are too wimpy. I'm coming at this from 3e experience where dropping a couple of CR's turns a monster into tissue paper that hits like a wet noodle.

Would this work?

At heart your analysis is pretty good. There are a few details where I think a bit differently, but in broad strokes I think you're on to the nut of it.

The assumed 'base' monster is in fact the skirmisher. I think the DMG1 encounter templates bear this out, and if you look at the monster design rules skirmishers are 'baseline' on everything. They do obviously tend to have a certain specific thrust to their powers but a 5 skirmisher at-level encounter will give your characters baseline chances to hit and defend. In general skirmishers are also the easiest monster role to foil and tend to be less troublesome than other monsters if the party is reasonably well designed.

Brutes can easily be over leveled. I've actually tossed in brutes up to level+7 now and then, and level+5 is certainly not a real problem (but stick to standard brutes and avoid ones that are too specialized). A Hill Giant for instance can be engaged by an 8th level party. It will be a tough opponent, but the party can hit it, deal enough damage to knock it out reasonably quickly, and survive its attacks. This is a bit of an exception though and not something to do all the time.

Soldiers definitely present a significant grind hazard. Personally I use them sparingly. One soldier monster in an encounter is usually enough and throwing in over leveled soldiers is indeed usually a bad idea. Even an equal level elite soldier can become tedious. They tend to damp down the party's ability to move around and just generally require a lot of attacks to kill. This is somewhat dependent on player ability though. A party that is sharp and knows how to focus fire well, has good debuffs and knows when to use them, and can direct attacks against the monster's weakest defense can find many soldiers to be fairly easy.

Well used controllers can really sometimes slow things down a good bit too. It really depends on the degree of synergy with the other monsters and the tactical situation. Most parties will hammer these monsters flat right off if they possibly can though and their mediocre defenses do mean they'll usually go down pretty fast.

Lurkers are hard to quantify as each one is pretty unique. Some are hard to kill, others pretty much get off one shot and go down.

Overall avoiding higher level monsters, keeping down the number of soldiers, using minions etc. and tending towards more monsters vs tougher monsters will generally make combat less tedious and more fun.

The combat environment is a big factor too though. Regardless of encounter design its generally tough to make a really interesting encounter without interesting terrain. Every fight should present some sort of tactical puzzle for the players to solve. Sometimes it can involve ways to overcome some sort of advantage the monsters have from terrain, other times it can involve figuring out how to gain an advantage yourself. Hazards, traps, 3 dimensional terrain, dynamic terrain, etc can really add to the encounter. They can also help make it shorter at the same time. Knocking a monster into a pit or turning a trap against it, pushing it into a hazard, etc SHOULD all be good ways to dish out more damage more quickly as well as breaking up the monster's tactical plans.

When it comes right down to it though if you have a lackluster party with little tactical coordination, a fairly vanilla tactical situation, and a couple of robust monsters you are likely to end up with a fairly static fight that can extend into a bunch of rounds of exchanging at-wills to little effect while everyone simply stands their ground.

I think the main difference with earlier editions is that 4e has a bit narrower sweet spot when it comes to encounter speed. In the old days the magic user could always whip out some nasty spell and close things out pretty quickly. Low level monsters in the old days also behave a lot more like 4e minions than anything else, they rarely take more than 1 or 2 hits to kill and most of them have poor defenses. 2-3 round combats were pretty typical in 1e and 2e vs less important foes. The threat level of monsters also had a lot more to do with their abilities than anything else, so it was pretty typical to have larger numbers of weaker encounters with the threat being more things like poison, level draining, or a particularly high damage output. 4e tends to lack these kinds of things and DMs seem to be drawn towards fewer tougher encounters. Overall the party can probably deal with more stuff more quickly in 4e, it just tends to come in fewer bigger encounters.

Also I think there's a lot of rose colored glasses being worn. I personally don't find 4e combat overall to be slower than 1e or 2e combat was. It may SEEM slower paced when you compare one combat to another but I remember PLENTY of 2-3 hour 2e encounters in the last campaign I ran using those rules. Especially when you add in things like preparation time.
 

Obryn

Hero
Yes, this type of thing can happen.

If the DM wants to set up a cardboard mega-villain to be wiped in 4 rounds.

But, if the DM wants to challenge the players, the DM knows of all of these abilities of the PCs. He doesn't have to have specific counters against them, he just needs to play the villains smart with some simple techniques.
Wait - so if the encounter doesn't grind, it's because the DM is doing it wrong?

Awesome catch-22, there.

-O
 

keterys

First Post
Odd. I don't see this at all. Our 6 person group is lucky to get 2 full encounters in within 5 hours, let alone 4 in 6.

In three groups, I can do 3 or 4 combats in 3 hours.
In two groups, I can do 2 combats in 3 hours.

A lot of it is the group. A _lot_.

Note: I also give the PCs the Expertise feats for free, so at level 15, they are +2 to hit with all attacks over core rules.

Eh, everyone would take expertise, so it's more that they're up a feat, which is much less of a big deal at 15th.
 

Pelenor

Explorer
Personally to me 4e is a lot less grindy then 3.5. I've noticed with a standard size 5 person group. We get in more rounds of combat in a shorter time. I as a DM have a lore more fun and can challenge the players better than before. I think the big part of what helps me is the monster stat blocks in 4e contain pretty much everything I need to know to run the monster outside of the basic rules.
 

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