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Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)
- Thread starter shilsen
- Start date
Fusilliban
First Post
I've spent free time over the past week or so reading this thread. I don't remember how I found it at this point, but... shilsen, you've created two wonderful things, my new favorite paladin character, and a great thread.
This is a hell of a character and almost certainly a paladin by my reckoning. I don't know if I'd allow him as a PC - he needs a hell of a lot of foils, and I've become extremely wary of paladins over time, since they seem to be more willing than any other character class to say "my character requires of me that I go do something the rest of the party has no interest in," which causes some unfortunate table conflict.
I'm afraid of Cedric as much as I am of any paladin in this regard - perhaps more so, since his only moral compass is himself. In this last, Cedric does not even appear to particularly serve his patron deity, but rather the cause he thinks his patron deity represents. I'm reminded of the Corporate Knights in that Cedric seems like someone who is sworn to his cause more than his leader, and if he thought it necessary, would kill his leader for the good of the cause - god or no. It's a scary level of devotion, but fun to read about. He also reminds me a little of Wheel of Time's al'Lan Mandragoran, especially how he appears in New Spring.
I'm currently running a Dragonlance game, since I grew up with the fiction and have the setting memorized. Dragonlance has no Paladins, but does have an order or three of Knights. Cedric isn't really suited to being a knight, because being a knight is more about being a member of an order than about being the chosen of your god. That said, Paladine is one of the most established Lawful Good deities in D&D history, and there's no doubt in my mind that if paladins existed in that world, Paladine would accept him with love and gladness. (There's a speech in there somewhere - "You walk a fine line, boy. You've chosen the hardest path for yourself of any man since the Cataclysm. I love you for it, and always will but know that if you slip past that line... I'll come down and deal with you myself. And don't think I'll miss because of the tears.") I've met Fizban, as I have met Cedric, and that's absolutely the kind of guy he is.
Cedric fits my definition of lawful, and my definition of good. He does not fit the PHB example of Lawful Good w/r/t expectations. I mean, putting aside for a bit the fact that, as the first ten pages of this thread show, expectations vary even within a culture - he sure as hell doesn't reach Magnus' expectations. (I'm assuming here that Magnus' expectations are vaguely reasonable for the setting. Wrong, perhaps, but still reasonable.)
My personal problem with him is here:
He walked up to the table and asked in a trembling voice, "Sir Cedric?!"
The man at the table looked up irritatedly and said, "Yeah! Who the **** wants to know?"
A young man he doesn't know comes up to him and timidly asks for him by both name and title. And Cedric gets rude. Now... after this, Magnus gets real mad about things Cedric considers stupid, and Cedric gets his own brand of righteous on him. And that was beautiful. But before that... before Magnus gets angry... someone comes to him timidly, trembling, with all the signs of needing help, and he's rude. That's a huge no, for a Paladin.
Some other stuff that got raised in the thread I think is worth talking about:
There was a lot of discussion about Aragorn at the Black Gate, and how he didn't really go to win. This... isn't true. He was marching for victory. Sure, it was the jaws of certain death for him and the thousands of Men who followed him. But if it worked, it was freedom and hope for the entire world in a way that they hadn't seen since before Melkor went bad. And that was worth certain death for. Knowing sacrifice for a shot at a greater good isn't defeatism or nihilism.
Somewhere, at least one person has accused Cedric of not paying attention to his appearance, of not caring how others percieve him. This is, if you'll forgive the pun, a dirty lie. First, note that Cedric is unfailingly polite and gallant to the whores and the madam. His conduct could even be considered chivalrous, but for the part where he pays them for sex. Second - note the description when Magnus sees him. Face stubble, uncombed hair, clothes in poor condition, boozin' and scratchin' - and his holy symbol is polished to a shine. That's a man who's very particular about what he cares about.
I don't buy that prostitution is evil. I mean, intentionally giving someone syphilis is evil, and the brutal-beating style of pimping is evil, but... "sex is legal, selling is legal... why is selling sex not legal?" This horse has been beaten a lot and there's not much I can say what hasn't been said already. That said, the "I wouldn't allow this sex in my game, I've got kids at the table" is weird to me in the context of a game that's about killing things. I'd rather someone be exposed to consensual sex for money than to rampant bloodshed for glory and reward. I'd rather be friends with a hooker than a mercenary.
Heh, heh. The guy who brought the ram is named "Grond." Shilsen's hat is tipping more than a college sophomore trying to score with his waitress.
Seriously, though, this fiction is a lot of fun to read. More than once it's made me laugh out loud or read a section to someone else in the room, and I've linked the first post to a handful of my gaming friends. I dunno what all this "I thought it was kinda pedestrian" crap is - this is good and fun to read. Sure, he's a bit of a Mary Sue, but I think it's impossible to have a paladin who isn't. I look forward to reading the story of how he dies in the siege. Alternatively, while I can't imagine the story would be better if he survived - maybe you'll pull another rabbit out of your hat and make it such anyway.
Reading all 18 pages of this thread has actually been a lot of fun. Thanks to shilsen, fusangite, Elder-Basilisk, Canis, and all the other posters who did more than their fair share of the heavy lifting with the awesome posts. Seriously guys, that was great.
This is a hell of a character and almost certainly a paladin by my reckoning. I don't know if I'd allow him as a PC - he needs a hell of a lot of foils, and I've become extremely wary of paladins over time, since they seem to be more willing than any other character class to say "my character requires of me that I go do something the rest of the party has no interest in," which causes some unfortunate table conflict.
I'm afraid of Cedric as much as I am of any paladin in this regard - perhaps more so, since his only moral compass is himself. In this last, Cedric does not even appear to particularly serve his patron deity, but rather the cause he thinks his patron deity represents. I'm reminded of the Corporate Knights in that Cedric seems like someone who is sworn to his cause more than his leader, and if he thought it necessary, would kill his leader for the good of the cause - god or no. It's a scary level of devotion, but fun to read about. He also reminds me a little of Wheel of Time's al'Lan Mandragoran, especially how he appears in New Spring.
I'm currently running a Dragonlance game, since I grew up with the fiction and have the setting memorized. Dragonlance has no Paladins, but does have an order or three of Knights. Cedric isn't really suited to being a knight, because being a knight is more about being a member of an order than about being the chosen of your god. That said, Paladine is one of the most established Lawful Good deities in D&D history, and there's no doubt in my mind that if paladins existed in that world, Paladine would accept him with love and gladness. (There's a speech in there somewhere - "You walk a fine line, boy. You've chosen the hardest path for yourself of any man since the Cataclysm. I love you for it, and always will but know that if you slip past that line... I'll come down and deal with you myself. And don't think I'll miss because of the tears.") I've met Fizban, as I have met Cedric, and that's absolutely the kind of guy he is.
Cedric fits my definition of lawful, and my definition of good. He does not fit the PHB example of Lawful Good w/r/t expectations. I mean, putting aside for a bit the fact that, as the first ten pages of this thread show, expectations vary even within a culture - he sure as hell doesn't reach Magnus' expectations. (I'm assuming here that Magnus' expectations are vaguely reasonable for the setting. Wrong, perhaps, but still reasonable.)
My personal problem with him is here:
He walked up to the table and asked in a trembling voice, "Sir Cedric?!"
The man at the table looked up irritatedly and said, "Yeah! Who the **** wants to know?"
A young man he doesn't know comes up to him and timidly asks for him by both name and title. And Cedric gets rude. Now... after this, Magnus gets real mad about things Cedric considers stupid, and Cedric gets his own brand of righteous on him. And that was beautiful. But before that... before Magnus gets angry... someone comes to him timidly, trembling, with all the signs of needing help, and he's rude. That's a huge no, for a Paladin.
Some other stuff that got raised in the thread I think is worth talking about:
There was a lot of discussion about Aragorn at the Black Gate, and how he didn't really go to win. This... isn't true. He was marching for victory. Sure, it was the jaws of certain death for him and the thousands of Men who followed him. But if it worked, it was freedom and hope for the entire world in a way that they hadn't seen since before Melkor went bad. And that was worth certain death for. Knowing sacrifice for a shot at a greater good isn't defeatism or nihilism.
Somewhere, at least one person has accused Cedric of not paying attention to his appearance, of not caring how others percieve him. This is, if you'll forgive the pun, a dirty lie. First, note that Cedric is unfailingly polite and gallant to the whores and the madam. His conduct could even be considered chivalrous, but for the part where he pays them for sex. Second - note the description when Magnus sees him. Face stubble, uncombed hair, clothes in poor condition, boozin' and scratchin' - and his holy symbol is polished to a shine. That's a man who's very particular about what he cares about.
I don't buy that prostitution is evil. I mean, intentionally giving someone syphilis is evil, and the brutal-beating style of pimping is evil, but... "sex is legal, selling is legal... why is selling sex not legal?" This horse has been beaten a lot and there's not much I can say what hasn't been said already. That said, the "I wouldn't allow this sex in my game, I've got kids at the table" is weird to me in the context of a game that's about killing things. I'd rather someone be exposed to consensual sex for money than to rampant bloodshed for glory and reward. I'd rather be friends with a hooker than a mercenary.
Heh, heh. The guy who brought the ram is named "Grond." Shilsen's hat is tipping more than a college sophomore trying to score with his waitress.
Seriously, though, this fiction is a lot of fun to read. More than once it's made me laugh out loud or read a section to someone else in the room, and I've linked the first post to a handful of my gaming friends. I dunno what all this "I thought it was kinda pedestrian" crap is - this is good and fun to read. Sure, he's a bit of a Mary Sue, but I think it's impossible to have a paladin who isn't. I look forward to reading the story of how he dies in the siege. Alternatively, while I can't imagine the story would be better if he survived - maybe you'll pull another rabbit out of your hat and make it such anyway.
Reading all 18 pages of this thread has actually been a lot of fun. Thanks to shilsen, fusangite, Elder-Basilisk, Canis, and all the other posters who did more than their fair share of the heavy lifting with the awesome posts. Seriously guys, that was great.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
What you have described, good sir, is a Fighter who calls himself a Paladin. Remember, not all who serve the church need be clerics or paladins. I would allow such a character to play in my game, even allow such a character to call himself whatever he likes to be called, but he would receive bonus feats instead of divine power. 
shilsen
Adventurer
Sadly, no. I actually got started on an update on the siege story, but then got sidetracked with the updates for my story hour. Running my game and doing regular story hour updates tends to take up all my gaming-related writing now, so Cedric goes by the wayside. I'd considered doing writeups for the monthly game he's a PC in (doing well and up to 9th lvl now), but couldn't make extra time for that either. So I'll hold off on making promises and just add to this if and when I come up with something.Blackrat said:ARISE. I'm a shameless Threadromancer. But this was the thread that originally brought me to EN World and I want more of this goodness.
P.S. You might want to check out my Story Hour. It's a different kind of writing, of course, but it has its own entertainment value, I think, and Cedric does make a couple of small cameos in there.
CleverNickName said:What you have described, good sir, is a Fighter who calls himself a Paladin. Remember, not all who serve the church need be clerics or paladins. I would allow such a character to play in my game, even allow such a character to call himself whatever he likes to be called, but he would receive bonus feats instead of divine power.
Fair enough, though obviously I beg to differ. Interestingly, it sounds like 4e might render such disagreements a thing of the past, since there are (I believe) going to be paladins of all the alignments. I'm quite curious to see how they present the mechanics and flavor for that.
Blackrat
He Who Lurks Beyond The Veil
shilsen said:
Yeah. I actually keep following it. And to give props on you, Cedric made a small cameo appearance in one of my game couple of years ago
. And I played a dwarven paladin once who was a bit from between Cedric and traditional pally. Cedric is definetly my favourite paladin ever.
shilsen
Adventurer
Blackrat said:
Cool. Pop in and say hello there sometime.
And to give props on you, Cedric made a small cameo appearance in one of my game couple of years ago
Hah! I should make a list sometime of all the people whose games Cedric has shown up in.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
True, all true. I'm very interested in the paladins of 4E because of the alignment overhaul, because it will definitely affect my game. Religion is kind of a big deal for us...shilsen said:
In my homebrew, the church of St. Cuthbert is the dominant religion of the realm, and the king (a high-level paladin) has instated a theocratic government. So long story short, everyone in the party...from the stately cleric and flashy sorcerer, to the unsavory rogue and the crude fighter, serves the church. They go on missions to fight evil, destroy demons, thwart the schemes of the Church of Vecna, and all that jazz in the name of their king (and by extension, in the name of St. Cuthbert.). This often puts them at odds with St. Cuthbert's dogma, but they are loyal to their king and are careful not to tarnish his good name.
Cedric would fit right in, hanging out with Indrid and Everlind in pubs trying to pick up women and score some opium, while Clarion and Drexin rolled their eyes and prayed for their immortal souls. But in my world, St. Cuthbert is a bit too lawful to endorse such undisciplined and disorderly behavior in his formal representatives (clerics and paladins)...I'm afraid Cedric would end up taking levels of fighter until he behaved a little more orderly and civilized (more Lawful, in other words.)
But I mean him no disrespect! His lack of paladin-ness is not tarnish; it is what makes him shine. There is nothing wrong with a fighter who serves the church, even one who serves with the utmost devotion. Too many people assume that a character needs to be either a cleric or a paladin to be a "faithful" character, and nothing could be farther from the truth.
Cedric can game with us anytime.
eamon
Explorer
I'd read the original character exposition a long time ago (before joining enworld and being able to post), but never the subsequent fiction.
It's great! I wish we all could have such intriguing, lively characters. Unlike so many D&D characters, cedric seems alive. I suppose no character can be truly interesting without exploring some boundary. I'd definitely allow cedric in my campaign (after the appropriate minor adjustments to find a matching deity and church).
It's great! I wish we all could have such intriguing, lively characters. Unlike so many D&D characters, cedric seems alive. I suppose no character can be truly interesting without exploring some boundary. I'd definitely allow cedric in my campaign (after the appropriate minor adjustments to find a matching deity and church).
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