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Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)
- Thread starter shilsen
- Start date
shilsen
Adventurer
Damn! Um ... er ... maybe during the summer break?Blackrat said:I sense threadcromancy at work again. And a good chance to poke Shil into writing more. You promised an update. Where is it?
Actually, since I'm likely going to be off in India during the summer and getting no tabletop gaming in my system (which also means not spending time on my story hour), this one may get a little more time. May.
hamishspence
Adventurer
Cedric: interesting
Is he a hero? yes. Is a a paladin: mm, hard to say, skirts the edge, but I see no malevolence. Even by Exalted Deeds, the sticking point would only be: is he being exploitative? as it said, being a good guy does not mean being a virgin, and the Vows are based on the idea that giving up something healthy and good is a sacrifice.
Remind me a bit of Sparhawk, who is closer to the middle of the zone between cedric and celibate. Pays for the time, but won't do the acts. Willing to be around them without being insulting. Willing to keep a mistress as part of his cover in Rendor, before start of book 1, but is kind. Kalten is even more Cedric-ish.
Is he a hero? yes. Is a a paladin: mm, hard to say, skirts the edge, but I see no malevolence. Even by Exalted Deeds, the sticking point would only be: is he being exploitative? as it said, being a good guy does not mean being a virgin, and the Vows are based on the idea that giving up something healthy and good is a sacrifice.
Remind me a bit of Sparhawk, who is closer to the middle of the zone between cedric and celibate. Pays for the time, but won't do the acts. Willing to be around them without being insulting. Willing to keep a mistress as part of his cover in Rendor, before start of book 1, but is kind. Kalten is even more Cedric-ish.
Nightbreeze
First Post
Summer break is over, Shilsen
Nightbreeze
First Post
I am sure that in sixties there must have been some people naming their babies with such names...but perhaps they changed them later
And no, I agree, I don't think this thread is ever going to die. We will pester shilsen until he gives us more story
Darkthorne
First Post
I would 100% allow him. None of his actions are evil, nor are they unlawful (if it was why hasn't the local law shut them down?). For all the people that disagree how many times have you changed someone's alignment (non paladin) if they were drinking, vulgar or wenching? Or had them arrested? If you had them arrested why was alcohol or wenching allowed to begin with in your campaign? If you haven't why the double standard? (I understand having young kids in your group and this not being age appropriate, but that is not the main question in point here). The whole "I detect evil/ kill evil" w/o recourse bit is garbage
jbear
First Post
Definitely yes; a clint eastwood type paladin that succeeds when other so called morally correct paladins are brought down, blinded by their own pride and 2 dimensional sense of honour and glory.
You definitely have freedom to build a paladin like this in 4e (where any alignment is acceptable), and certainly with the diverse range of gods in any pantheon of the game and in each of the worlds, I'm sure it is not inconceivable that a knight like this would be given patronage by the goddess of luck (to whom many a woman of the night has praye Im sure) or a sympathetic god of travel that knows the comfort found in a warm pair of thighs after a long days walk on the lonely road. The paladin shouldnt be shut so tightly in a stereo typical box; its not fair to do so.
And as far as I know no law is broken when a paladin sleeps with a prostitute, gets drunk or speaks crassly. After all the horror, guts, blood, murder and pillage, not to mention close shaves with the embodimient of pure evil, it seems quite plausible that someone that had a deep sense of good and justice could get pretty scarred and cinical about the world, and even so grit his teeth and fight the good fight when he was needed... a divine rambo lets say...
I personally dont imagine all the gods in dnd require their paladins to act as if the were catholic priests.
You definitely have freedom to build a paladin like this in 4e (where any alignment is acceptable), and certainly with the diverse range of gods in any pantheon of the game and in each of the worlds, I'm sure it is not inconceivable that a knight like this would be given patronage by the goddess of luck (to whom many a woman of the night has praye Im sure) or a sympathetic god of travel that knows the comfort found in a warm pair of thighs after a long days walk on the lonely road. The paladin shouldnt be shut so tightly in a stereo typical box; its not fair to do so.
And as far as I know no law is broken when a paladin sleeps with a prostitute, gets drunk or speaks crassly. After all the horror, guts, blood, murder and pillage, not to mention close shaves with the embodimient of pure evil, it seems quite plausible that someone that had a deep sense of good and justice could get pretty scarred and cinical about the world, and even so grit his teeth and fight the good fight when he was needed... a divine rambo lets say...
I personally dont imagine all the gods in dnd require their paladins to act as if the were catholic priests.
I actually registered to answer here. Unbelievable, if you knew how much of a lazy lurker I am.
(Sorry for reviving something so dead but damn, this stuff is Epic Awesome).
I would allow Cedric.
1) Just for his personality and interesting roleplay potential.
2) Not anything that he does goes against the paladin class.
He frequents prostitutes and pays for their services? That's lawful behaviour. More lawful than picking up a girl in a bar, actually (since that's far less formal and both partners' expectations are less clear(ly met)). In Cedric's case, where said prostitutes want to sleep with him, it's even good behaviour (he makes them feel pleased with him afterwards, which demonstrates his concern for their feelings and that he values them as sentient beings). He must be an honorable customer they have little bad to say about (as the Madam says).
He drinks alcoholic beverages? In the average D&D world, who doesn't consume alcohol? There is no good or evil inherent in the drinking of alcohol. Does it impair his judgment or hinder his abilities? No. Not ever. He drinks an amount he can handle, he never deviates from this amount (which, by way of gradual immunization, should lessen it's effects to the point of it barely affecting him at all) and pays for his drinks. The strict routine screams lawful, the alcohol itself says nothing about evil or good (which does not make it neutral but N/A).
He's a bit of a devious bastard with traps but he hung around (probably to make sure no-one but the evildoers set it off) and did it for the greater good (we aren't claiming Cedric is Lawful Exalted Good, some concessions may be made).
There have been those that said Sir Cedric doesn't set a good example? I beg to differ. The godawful stereotypical paladin wearing shining armor, galloping about on his white horse, slaying dragons and saving maidens has actually become 'unreachable'. These paladins set an example so absurdly out of reach of the commoners that no one in his right mind would even try to act like them.
Think about a world in which everyone followed the stereotypical paladin's example: a lush green world filled with honest, happy people that always acted with goodness, lawfulness and respectfulness. They've all taken vows of abstinence, chastity, nonviolence and obedience. Imagine all the good it would do them if, after one generation, they'd all gone extinct because of their celibacy.
Sir Cedric on the other hand is an excellent example because it's easy to picture anyone to become like him. His example is easier to reach and therefore likelier to be set as a goal. You can still drink, just do so with some restraint. You can still sleep with prostitutes but don't exploit them and make them actually enjoy being prostitutes. You can still curse, just don't do it with venom or out of spite. Stick to your friends and ideals, no matter what.
Hell, IMHO, Sir Cedric is a better paladin than the stereotypical paladin.
You have already reviewed the BoED. In it they quite clearly state (page 34) that the only poison (not ravage) characters can use is drow poison and oil of taggit (DMG) (both only cause unconsciousness).
Ravages 'are different' (don't think so myself but it's what the book says) because it's the evil *within* the opponent that causes the stuff to work. Quite clearly BS but hey, what can a fellow do?
(Sorry for reviving something so dead but damn, this stuff is Epic Awesome).
I would allow Cedric.
1) Just for his personality and interesting roleplay potential.
2) Not anything that he does goes against the paladin class.
He frequents prostitutes and pays for their services? That's lawful behaviour. More lawful than picking up a girl in a bar, actually (since that's far less formal and both partners' expectations are less clear(ly met)). In Cedric's case, where said prostitutes want to sleep with him, it's even good behaviour (he makes them feel pleased with him afterwards, which demonstrates his concern for their feelings and that he values them as sentient beings). He must be an honorable customer they have little bad to say about (as the Madam says).
He drinks alcoholic beverages? In the average D&D world, who doesn't consume alcohol? There is no good or evil inherent in the drinking of alcohol. Does it impair his judgment or hinder his abilities? No. Not ever. He drinks an amount he can handle, he never deviates from this amount (which, by way of gradual immunization, should lessen it's effects to the point of it barely affecting him at all) and pays for his drinks. The strict routine screams lawful, the alcohol itself says nothing about evil or good (which does not make it neutral but N/A).
He's a bit of a devious bastard with traps but he hung around (probably to make sure no-one but the evildoers set it off) and did it for the greater good (we aren't claiming Cedric is Lawful Exalted Good, some concessions may be made).
There have been those that said Sir Cedric doesn't set a good example? I beg to differ. The godawful stereotypical paladin wearing shining armor, galloping about on his white horse, slaying dragons and saving maidens has actually become 'unreachable'. These paladins set an example so absurdly out of reach of the commoners that no one in his right mind would even try to act like them.
Think about a world in which everyone followed the stereotypical paladin's example: a lush green world filled with honest, happy people that always acted with goodness, lawfulness and respectfulness. They've all taken vows of abstinence, chastity, nonviolence and obedience. Imagine all the good it would do them if, after one generation, they'd all gone extinct because of their celibacy.
Sir Cedric on the other hand is an excellent example because it's easy to picture anyone to become like him. His example is easier to reach and therefore likelier to be set as a goal. You can still drink, just do so with some restraint. You can still sleep with prostitutes but don't exploit them and make them actually enjoy being prostitutes. You can still curse, just don't do it with venom or out of spite. Stick to your friends and ideals, no matter what.
Hell, IMHO, Sir Cedric is a better paladin than the stereotypical paladin.
You have already reviewed the BoED. In it they quite clearly state (page 34) that the only poison (not ravage) characters can use is drow poison and oil of taggit (DMG) (both only cause unconsciousness).
Ravages 'are different' (don't think so myself but it's what the book says) because it's the evil *within* the opponent that causes the stuff to work. Quite clearly BS but hey, what can a fellow do?
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