D&D (2024) Wow, 5.5e characters are STRONG!

[Gladius Legis]

You aren't going to be able to succeed in showing your opinion to be true(other than for yourself). There are far too many variables and paladins(the 2014 version) are so very good.

Paladins are the best non-full caster. Which means they're the captain of the JV team.

My point, all along, is that it is unfair to single out Paladins for a nerf, which the 2024 version is getting, when the full casters are literally getting away with first-degree murder compared to the Paladin's misdemeanor assault.

 

[Maxperson]

Paladins are the best non-full caster. Which means they're the captain of the JV team.

My point, all along, is that it is unfair to single out Paladins for a nerf, which the 2024 version is getting, when the full casters are literally getting away with first-degree murder compared to the Paladin's misdemeanor assault.

I agree that it's unfair to nerf paladins. Where we disagree is in the paladin being Junior Varsity. Part of the casters damage is really the paladin's damage. The caster made the save vs. the hold person and was able to cast a spell that round because of the paladin. The caster is still conscious because of the paladin. The problem is that the paladin's damage is also increased by the haste spell so part of the paladin's damage is the wizards. Both are harder to hitting better because of the cleric. And on and on and on and on.

To make matters even worse, the caster does less or more damage based on the paladin's decision. If the paladin decides to get in front of the caster and use Sentinal to stop the big bad ugly from crushing the wizard into dust, he has just increased the wizard's damage production. If he instead goes the other way leaving the wizard all alone, shortening the time the wizard stays up, he has decreased the wizards damage production.

Everyone is dipping and helping out to the point where it's simply not possible to isolate a single PC and compare to another PC to tell who is better. Well, you can, but you can't be correct because you're ignoring the huge number of variables

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Paladins are the best non-full caster. Which means they're the captain of the JV team.

My point, all along, is that it is unfair to single out Paladins for a nerf, which the 2024 version is getting, when the full casters are literally getting away with first-degree murder compared to the Paladin's misdemeanor assault.

You have not seen all the nerf to spells.

Your example, conjure minor elementals will be changed.
Hypnotic pattern will probably get a nerf too (savong throws each round)
I sense a nerf for banishment too.
You are really only using the absolute most imbalanced spells. Take those away or add saving throws and casters woll be fine.

Casters will surely get some indirect nerfs by bringing spells in line.

The rest is your responsibility by varying encounters.

 

[Parmandur]

Which rarely happens in my experience, usually I have a pretty good idea of when to cast it and except combat, but that's neither here nor there

No, it's actually vital information: it means thst you are using a data sample of players not being kept sufficiently on their toes and incorrectly extrapolating from an outlier experience.

 

[Horwath]

Encounters happen at night as well. Not as often as during the day, but it can't be ruled out, so only foolish players will use up all resources before resting. Even spread out over 16 makes it 50/50 that you are just throwing a slot into the garbage by casting it in advance without knowing when the next encounter will be.

That is why most spells really need only two duration pre-set:

1 minute.
In combat spell, enemy debufs, DoT. Action cast
Self buffs, short range teleport. Bonus action.
Strong AoE party buffs. Action.

12hrs(so sorcerers have a use for Extend spell)
Adventure spells
Summonings.
This can be balanced through using Conc.



other possible durations:

1 round:
Very strong CC or self buff. Not using Conc. Usually a rider on direct damage spells.

1 hr:
this is maybe place for Invisibility or similar short exploration window,
But as invisibility breaks on spellcasting or attack and uses Conc, 12hrs would not break much.

24hrs or more or permanent;
basically your architecture and kingdom building spells.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I agree that it's unfair to nerf paladins. Where we disagree is in the paladin being Junior Varsity. Part of the casters damage is really the paladin's damage. The caster made the save vs. the hold person and was able to cast a spell that round because of the paladin. The caster is still conscious because of the paladin. The problem is that the paladin's damage is also increased by the haste spell so part of the paladin's damage is the wizards. Both are harder to hitting better because of the cleric. And on and on and on and on.

To make matters even worse, the caster does less or more damage based on the paladin's decision. If the paladin decides to get in front of the caster and use Sentinal to stop the big bad ugly from crushing the wizard into dust, he has just increased the wizard's damage production. If he instead goes the other way leaving the wizard all alone, shortening the time the wizard stays up, he has decreased the wizards damage production.

Everyone is dipping and helping out to the point where it's simply not possible to isolate a single PC and compare to another PC to tell who is better. Well, you can, but you can't be correct because you're ignoring the huge number of variables

Guarantee you if I replaced that Paladin with another Wizard the party would be improved. Guarantee you.

 

[Gladius Legis]

You have not seen all the nerf to spells.

Your example, conjure minor elementals will be changed.
Hypnotic pattern will probably get a nerf too (savong throws each round)
I sense a nerf for banishment too.
You are really only using the absolute most imbalanced spells. Take those away or add saving throws and casters woll be fine.

Casters will surely get some indirect nerfs by bringing spells in line.

The rest is your responsibility by varying encounters.

Just as many spells look like they're going to be buffed for 2024.

 

[Gladius Legis]

No, it's actually vital information: it means thst you are using a data sample of players not being kept sufficiently on their toes and incorrectly extrapolating from an outlier experience.

You are using a data sample of players who don't bother doing basic things like scouting, using divination spells, taking Perception proficiency, to see what enemies might lie ahead.

 

[Maxperson]

Guarantee you if I replaced that Paladin with another Wizard the party would be improved. Guarantee you.

You'd lose that bet, since it's a subjective thing and would apply only to you and your group. You'd be diminishing mine. I guarantee you.

 

[Gladius Legis]

You'd lose that bet, since it's a subjective thing and would apply only to you and your group. You'd be diminishing mine. I guarantee you.

Character power is not subjective.