Wulf's Collected Story Hour -- FINAL UPDATE 12/25

[Piratecat]

I'm of the opinion that a major character schtick that never gets the opportunity to be used is a shame. Heck, I think i'd add minions into a dungeon just so Wulf can sneak past them!

It must be more difficult running a pre-set selection of adventures; there is less space to add and subtract plot. If all of the major bad guys have "see sneaking" abilities, that makes it much more difficult for rogues.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Hey guys.

Why doesn't anyone talk between 4 and noon when I'm at work?

Anyway, Wulf, I believe you're wrong on Reflex saves particularly. I remember reading in one of the core books, though I'd be hard pressed to pull it out here at work, that Reflex saves are not allowed if you're denied your dex bonus. What I would do next time, though, would be allow a spot check to notice the incoming lightning and then a grapple check to see if the cat would let you wiggle enough to avoid the bolt. The cats were immune to the lightning, so they would try to hold people still while the bolts came in.

My issue with the sneaking in this adventure, as well as the beginning of the last, is that you've been fighting the last war. The bat-people had blindsight by hearing, so we'll cast a silence on Wulf to nullify their echo-location and he should be fine.

No one thought maybe a legend lore would be handy? Find out what the strengths and weaknesses of the steel predators might be?

Again, I thought your last sneaking mission was a success. You were able to get information before the battle. I was surprised you didn't take the helm of teleportation with to beam yourself home, but that's a minor thing.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'd just like to make it perfectly clear that my whining here isn't to say that dinkeldog's doing a bad job. He's run a successful and entertaining game for over a year, come on.

But I am a rules lawyer at heart and when the rules are "wrong" I like to discuss it.

As for my sneaking ability, I don't want to do "recon." I don't need to do recon, because (here we go again) we have spells for that. But I would very much like to sneak up on some bad guys and drop the whammy on 'em. I am optimized, both rules-wise and character-wise, for back-stabbing and unpleasantness, and taking sneaking out of that long chain of optimized feats and skills means that I have to be content with just flanking.

Which just doesn't feel at all the same as getting the drop on somebody and whackin' 'em without pity.

The problem with the Reflex save is multi-layered, because I'm grappling, and I have uncanny dodge, and I have evasion. There's a lot of stuff going on. As I said before, I didn't think it was the "wrong call" or anything at the table, I was happy to take my lumps and move on.

But in retrospect, at least in my game, as long as the spell says you get a save, you get a save. I don't like trying to apply realism to a concept that is completely unrealistic in the first place. So I'm grappling and I can't dodge? That sounds reasonable. But could you please explain how in other circumstances I could be standing at the center of a fireball in the middle of a barren cave and evade the whole thing? So that makes sense, but when I'm grappling it doesn't?

Point is, and forgive me for repeating myself, it's not about realism, it's about heroism. Sometimes you just get lucky (and rogues more often than not).


Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I sometimes think that the party thinks that Wulf's sneaking should then allow the entire party complete surprise on the enemy.

Not at all.

But it would be nice if it would at least allow ME to have complete surprise on the enemy.

Four little cats and one really big cat... Would I have opted to attack them right then and there if I thought I had the drop on them?

You bet yer ass I would.

It occurs to me as I write this that one of the reasons Wulf has been so lucky in cheating death for so long is that I'm never given the opportunity to make stupid decisions like that. I'm never alone to do the stupid heroic thing. Always got my homies at my back-- God bless 'em, every one.


Wulf

 

[Keldas]

The Dwarf is onto something here...

But in retrospect, at least in my game, as long as the spell says you get a save, you get a save. I don't like trying to apply realism to a concept that is completely unrealistic in the first place. So I'm grappling and I can't dodge? That sounds reasonable. But could you please explain how in other circumstances I could be standing at the center of a fireball in the middle of a barren cave and evade the whole thing? So that makes sense, but when I'm grappling it doesn't?

Point is, and forgive me for repeating myself, it's not about realism, it's about heroism. Sometimes you just get lucky (and rogues more often than not).


Wulf

This is the best argument I have heard for allowing a reflex save when pinned. I have to say I was in complete agreement with Dinkeldog at the table ruling yesterday but now I think we made the wrong call. There seems to be very little difference between being grappled and avoiding damage from a lightning bolt and being at ground zero of a fireball (or meteor swarm) and avoiding damage. If anything it would seem easier to avoid the lightning bolt.

On the other hand I know I have seen other threads where people have stated that someone grappled in a Dragon's mouth does not receive a saving throw and this seemed to be accepted fact (potentially based on the core rules). This would seem to support Dinkledog's argument that the core rules prohibit reflex saves when grappled.

Keldas

 

[Piratecat]

There is, in fact, a core rule that disallows evasion or a reflex save when there is absolutely no way for a PC to dodge. however, I'd probably argue for allowing it when grappled; after all, doesn't the hero ALWAYS spin at the last minute and let their enemy take the bullet/knife/spell that was meant for them?

Not that it is any of my business, of course. By the rules, I can't fault the ruling made in-game; I would have ruled the samew way, I think.

Less yappin', more writin'!

 

[Keldas]

Ooof! Marathon session today! 12 hours...

I am hoping that both Karak and Keldas will send me some personal story hour notes for some stuff their characters accomplished...

And Wulf as usual completely in the dark about it all...

Reread the character history I created a year and a half ago when we started and it will all make sense. Don't worry I'll send you some info to remind you and flesh out the details. Kudos to Dinledog for working this into the campaign seemlessly.

Keldas

 

[Jeremy]

Here's a quote from the Official D&D Frequently Asked Questions guide. It is in regards to something else, but it addresses reflex saves when you have no dexterity modifier. Just like when you are grappled and you lose your dexterity modifier to AC vs. external sources.

"Being flat-footed negates your Dexterity bonus to Armor
Class, but it does not affect your ability to make opposed rolls.
Your ability to react to danger is somewhat compromised when
flat-footed, but only slightly. For example, you become subject
to sneak attacks, but you make saving throws (even Reflex
saving throws) normally."

The DMG lists some situations where in evasion doesn't apply like PirateCat's aforementioned completely filled hallway with no where to dodge etc, and though it suggests a circumstance penalty to the Reflex Save, it doesn't negate the ability to attempt to minimize the damage.

In a grapple you are still moving around and wiggling and can get out of the way. In a pin you are still capable of trying to take cover underneath your pinner.

The simplest way to adjucate it IMHO is to ask whether there is a chance to turn, move, take cover, dodge, react, or even for luck to intervene for a hero. If so, give them their reflex save but penalize it if you feel the situation justifies it. There might be an air pocket in that swirling inferno of a fireball that the monk's uncanny senses allow him to locate and move with. For evasion, if there is no way they can avoid some of the damage and minimize the rest (they are tied to a wall and blasted by lightning bolt) take away the evasion as per the rules but still allow the reflex save. They might be able to twist or turn in their bonds just enough to not take the full brunt of the spell.

Even sleeping creatures get reflex saves. Does it say anywhere that a helpless character is denied reflex saves, maybe in hold person somewhere?

Edit: From the SRD:

"Bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, or unconscious characters are helpless. Enemies can make advantageous attacks against helpless characters, or even deliver a usually lethal coup de grace.

A melee attack against a helpless character is at a +4 bonus on the attack roll (equivalent to attacking a prone target). A ranged attack gets no special bonus. A helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC were -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him)."

Now I'm sure, though I can't find it so burn me as you see fit, that sleeping has been ruled a situation you still get a reflex save in. And sleeping is listed under the helpless condition summary. So if I'm right, then the rules as currently stated allow reflex saves even when held, just not evasion. I'll keep looking.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

I find the recent posts on this thread very interesting. I've always thought that you are only denied a reflex save when you are incapicated (ie helpless). Your Dexterity would drop to 0 and you wouldn't get a save. Being tied up would cause this, and I could see the arguement for being pinned (not just grappled). With that being said, I do think if you do deny a Reflex when you are pinned, then at the very minimum the Pinning creature should provide some sort of cover to soak the damage for you. Of course cover provides bonuses to Reflex Saves so it is a moot point


Just my 2 Copper Pieces.

 

[Marauder]

[B"Being flat-footed negates your Dexterity bonus to Armor
Class, but it does not affect your ability to make opposed rolls.
Your ability to react to danger is somewhat compromised when
flat-footed, but only slightly. For example, you become subject
to sneak attacks, but you make saving throws (even Reflex
saving throws) normally."
...
A helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC were -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him)."
...
[/B]

Seems cut-and-dry to me. It basically says that unless specifically stated, you always get a Saving Throw. In the case of a sleeping character (or even one that is held, stunned, or paralysed) they will be allowed a Reflex save; however, as their Dex is equal to 0, this will be at a -5 penalty from their base save (after adding in special modifiers due to such things as cloaks of protection or a paladin's Divine Grace).

So, in Wulf's case, I think it would have made more sense to allow the save but disallow evasion. If he was just grappled you might have also disallowed a Dex bonus to the save (Base + Non-Stat Modifiers), or if he was pinned then treat his Dex as 0 and just allow a save equal to Base + Non-Stat Modifiers - 5 and again disallow evasion. Sure, this will make it extremely difficult to pass the save to avoid damage, but I guess the point I am trying to get across is that unless it is irrefutably impossible to avoid the damage, then the victim should get a save. Another way of saying would be that if there is even the slightest chance of avoiding the full brunt of the damage, then the victim should get a save. By applying the modifiers above, it makes a successful Saving Throw very difficult to succeed at (if not impossible without rolling a natural 20) but the chance is still there,

Sleeping/Held etc creatures are still allowed to make Fort and Will saves so while I can see why people would disallow Reflex saves in those instances, it doesn't make sense from a game point of view. It also doesn't take into account random situational variables nor does it factor in chance/pure luck (in addition to magical protections and/or Divine Grace which might be active as well - these things just don't suddenly stop functioning/protecting a character because he/she is asleep or pinned). Just make the Dex modifier to the Reflex save equal to -5.

Sorry for the lengthy post