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D&D 5E Xanathar's Guide: How does identifying a spell + Counterspell work?

Counterspell is damn powerful.
I usually narrate spells. And if you can cast a spell yourself, it is easy to identify if a spell has material components.

It may be more difficult with a focus. Or without material components at all.
I would however just allow you to remember gestures. So you may not counter the first use of a spell but maybe the next one. This has the nice effect to disencurage spamming the sam spell over amd over again.
 

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Cyrinishad

Explorer
Well, except for spells that say, "At Higher Levels". It's still easy enough to force a die roll.

The problem I have here is that #2 and #3 work against each other.

#2 is a narrative explanation. That's fine. I prefer narrative explanations! However, the reasoning here doesn't work with the mechanics of a spotter.

Imagine this. You're playing a game where a machine drops a meter stick. Your job is to catch the meter stick as quickly as possible. The shorter the distance the meter stick has fallen, the higher your score. You may have played this game in grade school as a reflex test. Now imagine we change the game. The second game is just like the first, except you're wearing a blindfold. Additionally, a partner next to you can tell you when to catch the ruler. Which game do you think you'd do better at? You're now reacting to your partner's reaction instead of the ruler dropping, and your partner is reacting to the ruler dropping. It's not possible to be faster at the second game.

So, if #2 is correct that it would take too much time to see a spell, identify it, and cast counterspell by yourself, then by that reasoning #3 also doesn't work because it must take more time to react to another person and cast counterspell when that person had to react to the spell, identify it, and shout out what it was.

#3 also doesn't work, but that's primarily because a familiar isn't going to be able to identify a spell. A Cat is about as intelligent a familiar as you can get, and they have Int 3. Making a DC 15 Arcana (Intelligence) check when your roll is d20 - 4 (Int) + 0 (non-proficient) is pretty unlikely.

On point #1, you are certainly correct about the "At higher levels" phrasing of spells... But, like I said, I simply don't have any cheating non-sense at my table... cheaters are going to cheat, no matter what the rules are... don't play games with cheaters.

On point #2, I simply don't buy into this analogy. My conception of telepathic communication is clearly different, in that it is instant communication, speed of thought, as if your mind is simply communicating with itself, not a secondary individual that needs verbally recite their thoughts to a blind man... so, no blindfolds, and no additional mental processing time, your familiars reaction & your reaction are essentially simultaneous... and since the spell identification game is an all or nothing game, where you catch the stick doesn't matter, just that you catch it...
I do agree that there would be a measurable difference in reaction time to a secondary source versus a primary source, but it would require a more granular tactical simulation than D&D. We're talking about a very abstract 6-second combat round in which all of the movements and actions of an individual are fully resolved before the next individual in sequence fully resolves all of their movements and actions, etc... Given that context, both scenarios of the analogy you presented would occur in less than 6-seconds, so by D&D standards both would be equally effective.
So, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

On point #3, I never claimed that it was easy for all familiars to identify a spells, just that it is possible... I'll take a 10% chance to identify a spell over a 0% chance any day. Also, since we are discussing a scenario in which "variant/optional" rules are being used... If the DM is utilizing the "optional" spell identification rule presented in XGTE, it would be reasonable for the DM utilize all of the "variant" familiars as well... The Pseudodragon and the Imp both have average intelligence, bringing your chances up to 25% to identify a DC 15 Intelligence check.

I appreciate your encouragement for me to re-evaluate my assessment of the rules... and I stand by my original assertions.
We've got good rules, and we should use them...
 

merwins

Explorer
That means, that it is not possible to anticipate a spell without using either your reaction or action. So, how can you ever specifically Counterspell using your reaction, if you already need your reaction to identify the spell?

Seems like Counterspell is only possible at random. Big nerf, isn't it?

I'm probably missing something.

I don't understand where anyone is getting the idea that you need to be able to identify the specific nature of a spell to cast Counterspell. Could someone point that out to me?

In my PHB, it just says if you notice someone casting a spell, you can cast Counterspell to interrupt it with a reaction.
You have NO IDEA what spell they're casting.
While the first caster is trying to manipulate the Weave, the counterspeller twists the skeins away from them (figuratively). That's it.

Xanathar's "Identifying a Spell" section is about identifying a spell as it is being cast. It also uses your reaction.

If you're identifying a spell with your reaction, you CANNOT Counterspell it.
Pick one or the other.
You either want to know what the original caster is doing, or you want to stop it.
You, as a single individual, can't have it both ways.

If you have two magically savvy characters against the original character, one of them could identify (with a reaction) the spell being cast and quickly warn the second one, who could cast Counterspell (with a reaction).

Counterspell was never "random". It is an attempt to disrupt the casting of a spell being cast. The disruption is guaranteed if the spell is 3rd level or lower. I can't find where you're gifted with the knowledge of what the spell is.

I think OB1 had it correctly way back in post #3.

The actual "gift" you get with Counterspell is a free (and automatically successful) perception check, if the GM tells you that you "see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell."
 

Less than 6 seconds.

The invisible elephant in the room is time.

It makes perfect sense to make it a choice to either identify a spell or to counterspell, given the short amount of time involved.

I'd however at least allow the PC with counterspell to "feel" how high the level of the spell slot being spent is without having to identify the spell. Even if you don't know which spell it is, it should be reasonable to have a grasp of what level of spell is being cast. That way the PC doesn't waste a high level slot for countering a low level casting.
 
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lkwpeter

Explorer
Maybe it's the easiest and best way to tell anyone on your table what you are casting and don't allow Counterspell at higher levels.

1.) That would prevent cheating as Bacon Bits described in his post.

2.) It would speed up the game (no "Any reactions?" questions whenever someone casts a spell).

3.) And if you want to counter a higher level spell, you always have to make the Arcana check.

It is a house rule and it's definitely not perfect. I am not even sure, if my players would like it. But I am sick of all these Counterspell issues and somehow annoyed that WotC still didn't find a clear and practicable rule to solve them. I don't want every spellcaster to ask, if there are any reactions to identify his spell. And I don't want to house rule for an optional rule that has just been released like Jeremy suggestest by allowing a party member to identify a spell to finally counter it yourself. That's all unsatisfactory. Next step would be to ban Counterspell at all. :-(
 
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5ekyu

Hero
i have to say, and ask, what does this new added optional mechanic for ID spells (vs counterspells or other) **add** to the play for a group already using counterspell as reaction after spell announced (or other games)?

It doesn't seem more fun, more quick or certainly not more reasonable given the tag-team ID and report before counterspell is thrown ruling. it just seems to complicate things for no measurable gain. it seems so kludgy conjunction with in the overall combat play that its going to invite a great many campaign's to house rule it in some way if they include it at all.

To me that makes it a *very bad* "supplement added rule" because any mid-campaign rule addition is best when it fits in smoothly, does not disrupt the existing play and adds more fun encouraging many to use it as written.

Simply going to ignore it for my games. If we see a mechanic for "mystery casting" as a thing we want, our house rule will be much simpler - likely putting the burden of "hiding spell" on the caster instead of putting the burden of "ID spell" on everyone else.

HIDE SPELL:A caster may spend his bonus action to hide what spell they are casting that has a casting time of 1 action or less. Anyone wanting a "reaction" to the spell being cast with knowledge of what the spell is (counterspell, shield etc) might see through the deception through an opposed arcana vs deception check. (if the spell is normally a bonus action cast, they may spend their regular action for the deception.)
 

Bigsta

Explorer
I once looked one of my players in the eye and said, "the fire priest is casting Fireball, you should probably counterspell."

This optional rule is not for me.

Also, it was then that I learned that the party's Wizard didn't have counterspell.
 

I once looked one of my players in the eye and said, "the fire priest is casting Fireball, you should probably counterspell."

This optional rule is not for me.

Also, it was then that I learned that the party's Wizard didn't have counterspell.


Assumption is one of many paths to hilarity.

B-)
 

5ekyu

Hero
I once looked one of my players in the eye and said, "the fire priest is casting Fireball, you should probably counterspell."

This optional rule is not for me.

Also, it was then that I learned that the party's Wizard didn't have counterspell.
"Well then you should make a Dex save against DC "well done."

Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app
 

lkwpeter

Explorer
Yesterday, I discussed the whole topic with my table. It came out that my players didn't care for the whole "counterspell issue", but they asked me not to announce some spells like illusions or when a creature casts invisibility, because they don't want meta gaming. They wanted to use the optional rule only for such cases. So, if a creature "disappears" they are asking for a check to identify the spell. If they succeed, they are "officially allowed to meta game". For any other spell, I just announce what I am casting as a DM. Sounds weird to me. On the other hand, it seems a good mixture of both, keeping the game at a good pace and having some secret in casting certain spells (with the possibility to identify these spells with a check).
 
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