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D&D 5E Xanathar's Guide: How does identifying a spell + Counterspell work?
- Thread starter lkwpeter
- Start date
I had no doubt they did it on purpose. I just completely disagree with their reasons for doing it, and don't think using this optional rule adds anything of value to the game.
If you think it does, then use it.
ZickZak
Explorer
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/937156456083623938
There s more for you. I dont really care, none of our casters has the spell.
There s more for you. I dont really care, none of our casters has the spell.
MiraMels
Explorer
Yes, I think it that rule is quite silly, and far too granular for my taste, so I will carry on not using it at my table and in my games.
I never let my players identify spells mid-flight before, and I'm not about to start based on a suggested rule. Counterspell ought to be blind, and that's how I've always run it for my players.
I never let my players identify spells mid-flight before, and I'm not about to start based on a suggested rule. Counterspell ought to be blind, and that's how I've always run it for my players.
Cyrinishad
Explorer
A couple of things on this (and perhaps unsurprisingly going to defend the Spell Identification rule)...
1. I know that not every table uses these, but my table has Spell Cards... So, when a Spell-caster declares that they are casting a Spell, they simply place the Spell Card face-down in front of them... There simply isn't any non-sense of people cheating & deciding which Spell they were "really" casting after they find out if it's Counterspelled...
2. Spell-casting is not a uniform science where a given spell is cast in identical ways regardless of who or what is casting the spell... Certainly there could be some overlapping Verbal or Somatic elements, if there is a common instructor, but even then there is no guarantee... The need for every Wizard to inscribe their own spells in their own spellbooks, in order to memorize a given spell, indicates that each Wizard's spells are uniquely developed methods of reaching a more universally understood spell effect like "Fireball"...
This is why a Wizard can add new spells to their spellbook that they didn't learn from anyone else... because the Wizard developed a unique way to cast a spell that can also be cast by other Wizards (or Sorcerors, Clerics, Warlocks, etc.).
3. The Spell Identification rule also highlights the importance of a Familiar. A Familiar acts independently, and can communicate Telepathically with it's Summoner when it is within 100ft. This means Spell-casters with a Familiar have an important advantage when using Counterspell, versus Spell-casters without one. The Familiar can use its Reaction to identify the Spell & Telepathically communicate the Identification, at which point the Spell-caster can decide if it's a Spell that's worth Counterspelling...
We've been given good rules, don't be afraid to use them...
1. I know that not every table uses these, but my table has Spell Cards... So, when a Spell-caster declares that they are casting a Spell, they simply place the Spell Card face-down in front of them... There simply isn't any non-sense of people cheating & deciding which Spell they were "really" casting after they find out if it's Counterspelled...
2. Spell-casting is not a uniform science where a given spell is cast in identical ways regardless of who or what is casting the spell... Certainly there could be some overlapping Verbal or Somatic elements, if there is a common instructor, but even then there is no guarantee... The need for every Wizard to inscribe their own spells in their own spellbooks, in order to memorize a given spell, indicates that each Wizard's spells are uniquely developed methods of reaching a more universally understood spell effect like "Fireball"...
This is why a Wizard can add new spells to their spellbook that they didn't learn from anyone else... because the Wizard developed a unique way to cast a spell that can also be cast by other Wizards (or Sorcerors, Clerics, Warlocks, etc.).
3. The Spell Identification rule also highlights the importance of a Familiar. A Familiar acts independently, and can communicate Telepathically with it's Summoner when it is within 100ft. This means Spell-casters with a Familiar have an important advantage when using Counterspell, versus Spell-casters without one. The Familiar can use its Reaction to identify the Spell & Telepathically communicate the Identification, at which point the Spell-caster can decide if it's a Spell that's worth Counterspelling...
We've been given good rules, don't be afraid to use them...
No thank you. Those spell cards are a waste of money, and to me this optional rule is a waste of time.
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Cyrinishad
Explorer
Everyone finds value in different things. I have 10 people between 2 campaigns that are casual players. The spell cards have been really helpful for the casual players at my table, and sped up play...
...and I am glad that the rules have added value to the Familiar.
Bacon Bits
Hero
Well, except for spells that say, "At Higher Levels". It's still easy enough to force a die roll.
The problem I have here is that #2 and #3 work against each other.
#2 is a narrative explanation. That's fine. I prefer narrative explanations! However, the reasoning here doesn't work with the mechanics of a spotter.
Imagine this. You're playing a game where a machine drops a meter stick. Your job is to catch the meter stick as quickly as possible. The shorter the distance the meter stick has fallen, the higher your score. You may have played this game in grade school as a reflex test. Now imagine we change the game. The second game is just like the first, except you're wearing a blindfold. Additionally, a partner next to you can tell you when to catch the ruler. Which game do you think you'd do better at? You're now reacting to your partner's reaction instead of the ruler dropping, and your partner is reacting to the ruler dropping. It's not possible to be faster at the second game.
So, if #2 is correct that it would take too much time to see a spell, identify it, and cast counterspell by yourself, then by that reasoning #3 also doesn't work because it must take more time to react to another person and cast counterspell when that person had to react to the spell, identify it, and shout out what it was.
#3 also doesn't work, but that's primarily because a familiar isn't going to be able to identify a spell. A Cat is about as intelligent a familiar as you can get, and they have Int 3. Making a DC 15 Arcana (Intelligence) check when your roll is d20 - 4 (Int) + 0 (non-proficient) is pretty unlikely.
Frankly, I've never thought counterspell was auto-identify, even before XGTE. It just seemed to be too much, both narratively and mechanically to have caster Identify as part a reaction to counterspell. It all risk involved with it out. Can the DM metagame to screw over the players? Yes, that's nothing new. If it is such a problem, you can write down what spell you're casting beforehand to ensure no cheating. I've described what is happening with the spell and asked for a save / or damage roll and then still allowed a Counterspell.
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