D&D 5E XP Multiplier

[Tony Vargas]

Because that game was about gritty dungeon survival.
You paid for every XP, gold piece, and magic item in blood. You earned it. It wasn't just given to you. To do otherwise would undermine the theme in my view.

OK...

Depends on where they went, what they did (and how effectively), and how lucky they were.

Ah. One old trick was to 'baby sit' the lower-level character(s) by intentionally seeking out easier challenges. Another was to dress them up with second-hand magic items, which could dramatically increase survivability/effectiveness, too.

 

[iserith]

Ah. One old trick was to 'baby sit' the lower-level character(s) by intentionally seeking out easier challenges. Another was to dress them up with second-hand magic items, which could dramatically increase survivability/effectiveness, too.

Yeah, so one thing they would do is fish for a random encounter on the way to the dungeon to rack up a little XP for the lower-level PC. Sometimes that worked, other times it didn't. Once they got to the dungeon, it was a bit hairier. Cleared levels didn't usually repopulate (though they still had wanderers) so in they'd go to the lower levels, usually fishing for a wandering monster along the way. After that, they'd be encountering the denizens of those levels which were tough. Mind you, the random encounters and wanderers weren't necessarily easier than the dungeon denizens - it varied. Mostly they did that because they'd want to accrue enough XP for a level or two, then go for a short rest (8 hours in this game) which would allow the PC to level up mid-session. In other words, as expected and (I say) appropriate, the players rose to the challenge with whatever tricks they could imagine and implement to help the lower-level PC survive based on their understanding of the game and the dungeon itself.

What I didn't see was the lower-level PC being sidelined or considered "second tier." They contributed and had their fair share of the spotlight. Sometimes they'd go down, but that was true of higher-level PCs as well.

 

[jgsugden]

I have a lot of experience, in each edition, with both sides of the argument. I have played in games, in each edition, where a dead PC means starting again at first level regardless of the level of the rest of the party. I've played in games where DMs give massive role playing experience bonuses, most often to the really cute girl in the group that says very little but shows a lot of her "character" (character is a measure of skin, right?), and I've played in games where PCs are ALWAYS 7th level. In my life, I've probably played in multiple sessions with over 200 different people, and done one shots with several hundred more people. Been there, done that. About 40% of those games used milestone experience and the majority of the rest used experience advancement, at least in theory. My experiences over that time just do not match up with people preferring to have lower level PCs because they can't make every game due to real life responsibilities, or with PCs being several levels behind being no big deal.

6 levels behind? Forget 1 vs 7. Fire giant is CR 9. A 3rd level PC has about 20 to 35 hps. The Giant deals 28 to 29 damage on a swing. 6 levels behind means going down in about one blow - maybe you're 'lucky' and the first blow takes you down to 1 or 2 hps where the second blow may be a single hit negative hp total kill. A CR 13 Nalfeshnee might need all three of the multi-attack attacks to take down a 7th level PC with 40 to 65 hps. Maybe. Marilith of CR 16 versus a level 9 PC? Tail grab, restrain, then slice and dice with advantage for 6 more attacks? Heaven forbid the PCs face off with a monster with a CR *higher* than the toughest PC in the encounter - better to bore them with foes that are not a challenge to them, right?

A lot of the DMs I know that have been players in my games move to milestone advancement eventually - some right away. It is so much easier on the DM. It aligns advancement with a good climax - a place where rewards feel earned. People feel less over/under powered when facing challenges - and that really does sit better with pretty much all the players I know.

Green Eggs and Ham, people. Green Eggs and Ham.

 

[iserith]

I have a lot of experience, in each edition, with both sides of the argument. I have played in games, in each edition, where a dead PC means starting again at first level regardless of the level of the rest of the party. I've played in games where DMs give massive role playing experience bonuses, most often to the really cute girl in the group that says very little but shows a lot of her "character" (character is a measure of skin, right?), and I've played in games where PCs are ALWAYS 7th level. In my life, I've probably played in multiple sessions with over 200 different people, and done one shots with several hundred more people. Been there, done that. About 40% of those games used milestone experience and the majority of the rest used experience advancement, at least in theory. My experiences over that time just do not match up with people preferring to have lower level PCs because they can't make every game due to real life responsibilities, or with PCs being several levels behind being no big deal.

6 levels behind? Forget 1 vs 7. Fire giant is CR 9. A 3rd level PC has about 20 to 35 hps. The Giant deals 28 to 29 damage on a swing. 6 levels behind means going down in about one blow - maybe you're 'lucky' and the first blow takes you down to 1 or 2 hps where the second blow may be a single hit negative hp total kill. A CR 13 Nalfeshnee might need all three of the multi-attack attacks to take down a 7th level PC with 40 to 65 hps. Maybe. Marilith of CR 16 versus a level 9 PC? Tail grab, restrain, then slice and dice with advantage for 6 more attacks? Heaven forbid the PCs face off with a monster with a CR *higher* than the toughest PC in the encounter - better to bore them with foes that are not a challenge to them, right?

A lot of the DMs I know that have been players in my games move to milestone advancement eventually - some right away. It is so much easier on the DM. It aligns advancement with a good climax - a place where rewards feel earned. People feel less over/under powered when facing challenges - and that really does sit better with pretty much all the players I know.

Green Eggs and Ham, people. Green Eggs and Ham.

Again. I don't object to milestone advancement. I do object to the argument that milestone advancement is good because to do otherwise is a "punishment for having a life outside of D&D."

As for fighting a CR 9 fire giant at 3rd level or other monsters of much greater CR than the party, I've seen players do this plenty... and succeed. They do so by fighting on terms favorable to them and not the monster. If you're going toe-to-toe with a fire giant at 3rd level, as DM I wish you the best of luck, but you shouldn't be surprised if you are smashed into a fine pulp. Maybe try a different tactic next time.

I'm reminded of an encounter with a chain devil in my last campaign. The area of the dungeon in which the PCs faced it was very favorable to it and the PCs were very low level. They investigated, prepared, set things up to even the playing field, and finally engaged it. It took a lot of resources, but they defeated it and acquired some great XP and treasure in the doing.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

That's meta-gaming, though, which is an illegal action when playing an RPG.

"Illegal action"... haha! What happens when you do it? Do you get a red card? Sit in the penalty box? Thrown out of the game? Suspension? Fine?

As long as the character is in the dungeon, and swinging their sword - facing the same challenges as everyone else - then the only reasonable option is for them to advance at the same rate.

You're making a pretty big assumption here. A lot of groups play it such that when the player isn't there, the character isn't there. They'd much rather handwave a reason for their character to be absent than have them played as an NPC (and possibly risk dying as one).

 

[guachi]

That's meta-gaming, though, which is an illegal action when playing an RPG. You can't tie an in-game event (like skill progression) to an out-of-game event (like player attendance) without breaking causality. As long as the character is in the dungeon, and swinging their sword - facing the same challenges as everyone else - then the only reasonable option is for them to advance at the same rate.

I think I can live with myself for being an RPG law breaker. Send the fine in the mail. I'll get my secretary to cut you a check.

Oh, wait. There is no such law.

 

[Yunru]

I think I can live with myself for being an RPG law breaker. Send the fine in the mail. I'll get my secretary to cut you a check.

Oh, wait. There is no such law.

A bit did you know that DMs can metagame too, and that's also illegal?

C'est the reason I blocked him- too many concussions from headdesking.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think I can live with myself for being an RPG law breaker. Send the fine in the mail. I'll get my secretary to cut you a check.

Oh, wait. There is no such law.

And Saelorn has even fewer ninjas to enforce it than WotC.

"Illegal action"... haha! What happens when you do it? Do you get a red card? Sit in the penalty box? Thrown out of the game? Suspension?

Suspension. Of Disbelief.

 

[Harzel]

"Illegal action"... haha! What happens when you do it? Do you get a red card? Sit in the penalty box? Thrown out of the game? Suspension? Fine?

He sees you when you're sleeping.
He knows when you're awake.
He knows if you've been bad or good...

​Want Xanathar's for Christmas? Better shape up.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

"Illegal action"... haha! What happens when you do it? Do you get a red card? Sit in the penalty box? Thrown out of the game? Suspension? Fine?

The game tells you what the rules are. What happens when you break the rules is not a matter that they address, because there's no reason to expect that you would follow that rule when you've already shown your disregard for the rules.

Of games that I've seen where the penalty for meta-gaming is codified, it usually results in an experience penalty for the character of the violating player. Fewer games codify penalties for when the GM cheats, but of the one I can recall right now, a player who successfully calls a GM out for cheating results in the entire adventure being discarded and the player characters being reset back to the state they were in before that adventure started.