Your ideal class orgainization

[steeldragons]

Pulling from the "Let's make a Warlord for 5e" thread -seems more appropriate to expound upon here- one could also go the route of sorting classes by "meshing" abilities for every base class...as I alluded to in a previous post.

This organization, which I am warming up to more and more,would give you a game presenting something similar to the following...

OO! WHAT IF...instead of 3e+ style MCing, part of the game and class organization is worked up like ye olde Thief-Acrobat or Bard? If you're a fighter, you be a fighter for, like, at least 3 but no more than 5 levels, you can take one of the "subclass" options or just continue on the straight-up Fighter track?

So, you want to be a barbarian, fine. You're a fighter running around in a loin cloth with a battle axe for 3-5 levels and then you take/become a [Fighter-]Barbarian and the rest of your progression is your Barbarian tricks and features and rage shtick.

Want to be a paladin? Great! You buy your armor and sword. Maybe get a horse. You play the pious knight-in-shining-armor for 3-5 levels and then you can take/become a [Fighter-]Paladin tricks and features and auras and "hand laying" shtick.

Fighter: be the normal fighter-warrior guy, whatever flavor/style you want. Hits reliably, damages reliably, stays standing longer than most. All armor. All weapons. NO Magic.
--Barbarian: the Con. Ftr., Signature thing: Rage, deals more damage, gets some survival/endurance skills, NO MAGIC!
--Warlord: the Int. Ftr., Signature thing: Inspire, hits more often (through others), others stand longer (helps with saves), gets some interactive/leadership skills, NO MAGIC!
--Paladin: the Wis Ftr., Signature thing: Auras & Divine magic, better hit/damage/control through magic effects & limited spells.
--Ranger: the Dex. Ftr., Signature thing: "Marks" [favored prey/quarry/enemies] & limited Nature magic, limited hit/damage/control through magic effects & limited spells, some nature/stealth skills.
--Swordcaster ["spellsword, swordmage, eldritch knight," whatever]: the Cha. Ftr., Signature thing: Arcane [or Mystic/psychic?] magic, better ability (hits/damage/field control/what have you) through magical effects & limited spells. Basically, a Ftr-Sorcerer or Ftr-Mystic vs. a Ftr-spell-casting-MU/Wizard. A Jedi. Let's call it what it is, it's a D&D Jedi.

Mage: be the normal magic-using spell-slinging guy, whatever flavor you want. Casts spells, know lore n' stuff, squishy squish but eventual uber power. No armor. Limited weapons. ALL Magic.
--Illusionist: the Dex. MU, Sig: Illusions, arcane magic, perception manipulation/control.
--Psychic: the Con. MU, Sig: Mental Powers, mind and force manipulation/control.
--Hedge/Witch: the Wis. MU, Sig: Hexes, arcane & nature magic, nature & crafting tricks & skills.
--Sorcerer: the Cha. MU, Sig: Spell Topic Trees/Metamagic, arcane magic, at-will powers.
--Battlecaster: the Str. MU, Sig: Martial Prowess, arcane magic, some armor, some more weapons.

Rogue
--Thief: Cha. Rog.
--Acrobat: Str. Rog.
--Assassin: Con. Rog.
--Bard: Wis. Rog.
--Investigator: Int. Rog.

Mystic
--Cleric: Str. Mys.
--Druid: Con. Mys.
--Warlock: Cha. Mys.
--Necromancer: Int. Mys.
--Monk/Ascetic: Dex. Mys.

 

[Lanefan]

Each of these is its own separate class right from the start (no 'prestige classes' etc.) thus for example a Knight is a Knight and a Fighter is a Fighter. I've blocked them together just for ease of parsing.

Fighter - versatile warrior type, str based
Cavalier/Knight - heavy metal tank, str and con based
Ranger - woodsy warriors, can use magical herbs but not spells, light or heavy armour, based more on Aragorn or Robin Hood than that gawdawful Drizz't, con based
Archer/Swashbuckler - light-armour dex and str based warrior

Thief - versatile sneaky type, dex based
Assassin - sneaky killing type, str and dex based
Scout/Spy - information gatherer, int and dex based
Monk - sneaky 'martial arts' type, no armour, few or no weapons other than hands-feet, based on all stats (i.e. no stat is primary but all must be at least 12)

Cleric - generic divine caster, good healer, wis based
War Cleric - battle-focused divine caster, poor healer, wis and str based
Paladin - battle-focused divine leader, mediocre healer, wis and cha based
Druid/Nature Cleric - nature oriented divine caster, best healer, wis based

Mage - generic flexible arcane-caster type, merges all magic schools except those noted below, int based
Illusionist - arcane mind-trickery including pain, int and dex based
Necromancer - makes things dead then plays with the corpses, arcane (NOT divine!) caster, int and cha based

Bard - sonic-based abilities rather than spells, can fight and sneak a bit, no healing, int and cha based

Note what is intentionally missing - there's no attempt to combine what should be separate classes. No Arcane Trickster, for example. There's also no Sorcerer or Warlock - Sorcerer is just a Mage under a different name (and ideally all casters would use the Sorcerer mechanics so even less reason to keep it as separate) and the whole dark-pact thing with Warlocks can be an optional background for any class (with few if any benefits for the PC and a lot of headaches!) rather than restricted to just one.

And no Warlord. In-party leadership should be open to any class as a non-mechanics-based outgrowth of roleplay, and at-distance healing e.g. Second Wind should not exist IMO.

Lan-"and if you really want to play a Fighter and a Mage, play one of each rather than trying to combine them into one character"-efan

 

[Wightbred]

This is a fun idea for a thread.

I like what Backgrounds have done in adding variety on top of classes, so I’d take it further. Each character gets a combat role and a non-combat role. That way they all shine across the three pillars. Also when you multiply all the combat and non-combat options you get a huge variety without a heap of classes.

Example combat classes:
- Archer
- Armiger (armour)
- Backstabber (sneak attacks)
- Berserker (rage)
- Harrier (mobile fighting)
- Shield Warden
- Warlock (spells in combat)
- Warrior
- ...etc

Example non-combat:
- Emissary
- Healer
- Hunter (tracking)
- Lord
- Priest
- Ritualist (non-combat spells like teleport)
- Shadow (sneaking)
- Wanderer (travelling)
- ...etc

You can do plain classes like Backstabbing-Shadow = Rogue, but now you can also be an Archer-Healer, Warlock-Lord or Warrior-Ritualist.

 

[MoonSong]

I can say I'm not a fan of reductionism: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...of-everything-but-fighter-cleric-rogue-wizard , but for the sake of participating in this, I will say I favor two possible ideas.

1) Let's go with the reductionist idea, few base classes:

: Mundane, any and all kinds of martial combatants go here. Pure raw physical power.
Subclasses: Striker.- An offensive warrior that uses fighting prowess to cause the most damage as quickly as possible.
Guardian.- A defensive warrior that specializes in ways to protect themselves and others. (Cavalier, martial paladins)
Lancer.- A support warrior that focuses on battlefield control. (Some Warlords)
Sniper.- A long range warrior. (Any ranged weapon user)
Swashbuckler.- An agile warrior that fights dirty. (Rogue, Dex Fighters)
Guide.- Someone who fights vicariously through others.(Some Warlords, Pet users)
: Primalist, they use their aura/vital essence in order to fight and affect the world around them.
Sorcerer.- The aura manifests as magical energy.
Barbarian.- The aura manifests as enhanced resilience and strength.
Aura/Ki Warrior.- The aura is expressed directly in its raw form. (Monk, some Paladins, generic shonen uara knight)
Otherworldly.- The aura modifies the body so it joins with the soul becoming ethereal, self-sustaining.(Think turning into an angel or spiritual being for short periods of time)
Psychic/Empath.- The aura manifests on subtle ways, mostly on the mind/emotional plane. (Psion/Ardent)
: Spiritualist, they borrow their power from an external entity.
Vessel.- The external entity inhabits the spiritualist and can claim full control at times.
Champion.- The entity chooses and empowers the champion, sometimes indirectly, for the way they embody a virtue/characteristic they favor. If they stop being that examplar they risk loosing the boon. (Paladins of a Deity)
Cultist.- The spiritualist actively worships and empowers the entity thorugh it and receives the power as a boon. (Cleric/Specialty Priest)
Bargainer.- The entity and the spiritualist have an agreement, this is a straight exchange. (Warlock)
Scion.- The spiritualist borrows the power of a powerful ancestor. (All of the bloodline sorcerers)
Spirit Talker-. The entities are multiple and smaller in power, they act directly in behalf of the spirit talker.(Some druids)
: Occultist, they use hermetic knowledge in order to harness the universal energy around them. This one has two dimensions:
a) training
Ritualist.- They keep traditions and rituals passed through oral tradition and direct instruction.(Bards, Druids)
Scholar.- They actively study and understand the ways to manipulate magic through written tradition.(Wizards)
b) scope
Kineticist.- They learn how to manipulate kinetic forces directly.
Channeler.- They draw energy from an speciffic plane of existence that shapes the effects they achieve.(Elementalists)
Formulist.- They learn codified -an even rigid- recipes that have discrete and speciffic effects. (Wizards)
And then we layer on top of that a Theme/Job/Background that shapes them like Knight, Ranger, Soldier, Crusader, Thief etc. These jobs/themes have a wide scope

The other idea is -on a classic "4 class" structure- to have

Brute Force.:
Fighter
Barbarian
Ranger
Warlord

Ability:
Thief
Assassin
Sorcerer
Ardent/Empath

Tradition.:
Clerics
Druids
Bards
Paladin
Monk

Knowledge Use their knowledge to solve stuff:
Mage/MU/Wizard
Runecasters
Warlocks
Psions
Tactician

 

[mellored]

I can say I'm not a fan of reductionism: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...of-everything-but-fighter-cleric-rogue-wizard , but for the sake of participating in this, I will say I favor two possible ideas.

IMO, it's both reduces choice overload, and allow a more natural character growth.

i.e.
Level 1: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 2: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 3: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 4: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 5: Choose one of these 3 options.
vs
Level 1: Choose one of these 243 classes.
Level 2-5: You're stuck on the path you chose.

Same number of total options. But the first method doesn't require you to read an entire book before you start playing.

It also lets your character adapt to the story, rather than choosing your destiny and being stuck with it. For instance, if your a level 10 earth bound dwarf barbarian, and a flying creature eats your grandma, then your character is going to want to change directions and pick up some anti-air options. Which is easier to do if you get new choices each level rather than having to start over again at hawk totem barbarian 1.

 

[Satyrn]

IMO, it's both reduces choice overload, and allow a more natural character growth.

i.e.
Level 1: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 2: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 3: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 4: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 5: Choose one of these 3 options.
vs
Level 1: Choose one of these 243 classes.
Level 2-5: You're stuck on the path you chose.

Same number of total options. But the first method doesn't require you to read an entire book before you start playing.

It also lets your character adapt to the story, rather than choosing your destiny and being stuck with it. For instance, if your a level 10 earth bound dwarf barbarian, and a flying creature eats your grandma, then your character is going to want to change directions and pick up some anti-air options. Which is easier to do if you get new choices each level rather than having to start over again at hawk totem barbarian 1.

I'm starting to wonder if my ideal class organization might be this:

Pick a weapon
Axe
Sword
Bow

Choose some armor:
Leather
Chainmail
Plate

Then enter the dungeon. If you loot something you like better, go ahead and use it.

 

[MoonSong]

IMO, it's both reduces choice overload, and allow a more natural character growth.

i.e.
Level 1: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 2: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 3: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 4: Choose one of these 3 options.
Level 5: Choose one of these 3 options.
vs
Level 1: Choose one of these 243 classes.
Level 2-5: You're stuck on the path you chose.

Same number of total options. But the first method doesn't require you to read an entire book before you start playing.

It also lets your character adapt to the story, rather than choosing your destiny and being stuck with it. For instance, if your a level 10 earth bound dwarf barbarian, and a flying creature eats your grandma, then your character is going to want to change directions and pick up some anti-air options. Which is easier to do if you get new choices each level rather than having to start over again at hawk totem barbarian 1.

Multiclassing? and I also favor some way for players to have control over magic items, specially for those that open up new ways to play, so maybe the solution is to get some winged boots instead of commiting a permament resource like a level to solve a one time deal?

 

[mellored]

I'm starting to wonder if my ideal class organization might be this:

Pick a weapon
Axe
Sword
Bow

Choose some armor:
Leather
Chainmail
Plate

Then enter the dungeon. If you loot something you like better, go ahead and use it.

That doesn't seem like a bad way to go.

On the other hand, if you want to play a basting wizard, but find a magic greatsword, armor of the beserker, and belt of strength that could be disappointing.
Maybe for a shorter game. Or possibly add in some player agency over what you find.

Multiclassing?

Multi-classing with full class still requires looking though (243-1) 242 options to look through.
Multi-classing with per-level choices requires (3 class choices + 3 base choices) 6 to look through.

and I also favor some way for players to have control over magic items, especially for those that open up new ways to play, so maybe the solution is to get some winged boots instead of committing a permanent resource like a level to solve a one time deal?

Then you have 243 classes + 243 items = 486 options to look through before you start playing.

I'm not against the idea of items that change how things play though. But only if it was somehow like "pick one of these 3 items now, and another choice of 3 later." (And not pushing the job of choosing from the 243 items to the DM either).

 

[Satyrn]

That doesn't seem like a bad way to go.

On the other hand, if you want to play a basting wizard, but find a magic greatsword, armor of the beserker, and belt of strength that could be disappointing.
Maybe for a shorter game. Or possibly add in some player agency over what you find.

Yeah, I didn't really consider spell casters . . .

Player agency over what they find would come in when they decide whether to loot the Mad Wizard's Tomb instead of the Hall of the Barbarian Kings of Olde.

. . . Maybe just make spells far more powerful than any weapon, but limit their use to like once a day.




. . . I'm just reinventing the earliest D&D aren't I?

 

[mellored]

Player agency over what they find would come in when they decide whether to loot the Mad Wizard's Tomb instead of the Hall of the Barbarian Kings of Olde.

Sounds fun. Dungeons as the new class levels.

Level 1: Choose between these 3 dungones, timmy the inept pyromanic, jack the weak bully, or clare the polytheist. At the end of the dungeon, you learn about 3 new dungeons.

Level 2: Choose between these 3 new dungeons...