Yugoloths: Do They Have an Identity Beyond the Blood War?

[TheCosmicKid]

They are pointless. Demons and Devils have a basis in religion, myth and fable. Daemons (pronounced demons) owe their existence solely to the AD&D alignment wheel and where invented to fill up space in the Fiend Folio (1st ed).

I'm not a fan of Gygaxian gap-filling either, but surely the devils and demons are no less products/victims of it than the daemons. It's not as if religion, myth, and fable are bursting with stories that make a distinction between "demon" and "devil", characterize one as crazy evil and the other as organized evil, and pit them against each other in eternal conflict. That's all AD&D.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm not a fan of Gygaxian gap-filling either, but surely the devils and demons are no less products/victims of it than the daemons. It's not as if religion, myth, and fable are bursting with stories that make a distinction between "demon" and "devil", characterize one as crazy evil and the other as organized evil, and pit them against each other in eternal conflict. That's all AD&D.

No, there is more to it than that. D&Ds devils are based on the Faustus myth - bargaining for souls - corruption - twisted deals; and Dante's Inferno - devils working for god by punishing evil souls after death. Demons are pretty much everything else - monsters who just want to destroy. Daemons, Demodands and Slaad are just filing in gaps in the D&D alignment wheel, and both mythologically and in terms of their game role are no different from demons.


Slaad in particular are a missed opportunity for something far more Lovecraftian. I think the person who invented them must have had a frog/toad phobia to think they are remotely scary.

 

[dave2008]

They are pointless. Demons and Devils have a basis in religion, myth and fable. Daemons (pronounced demons) owe their existence solely to the AD&D alignment wheel and where invented to fill up space in the Fiend Folio (1st ed).

FYI, Daemons are in the 1e MM2 not the Fiend Folio.

 

[dave2008]

No, there is more to it than that. D&Ds devils are based on the Faustus myth - bargaining for souls - corruption - twisted deals; and Dante's Inferno - devils working for god by punishing evil souls after death.

That is not D&D lore at all really. In D&D devils collect souls to increase their power mostly I believe

 

[Shroomy]

FYI, Daemons are in the 1e MM2 not the Fiend Folio.

The nycadaemon and mezzodaemon both appeared in the 1e FF. Though their first appearance was actually in the Vault of the Drow, three years earlier.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That is not D&D lore at all really. In D&D devils collect souls to increase their power mostly I believe

No, but it introduced the aspect of an ordered hierarchy of Hell, with lesser devils taking orders from senior devils.

 

[dave2008]

The nycadaemon and mezzodaemon both appeared in the 1e FF. Though their first appearance was actually in the Vault of the Drow, three years earlier.

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't buy that one back in the day - the name threw me off and I thought it was for a different game! I do remember looking through my friends copy, but that is not the same. Of course I have it now, I just didn't realize it was published before the MM2.

 

[dave2008]

No, but it introduced the aspect of an ordered hierarchy of Hell, with lesser devils taking orders from senior devils.

Did it, I'm not so sure. Is that idea really even Christian. I am not a biblical scholar, but the Christian Hell doesn't seem to be particularly ordered. That concept has been layered on by literary tradition. Now, if your saying D&D is part of that literary tradition - I get it. But I don't think it is a simple cause and effect.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Daemons distinct from demons have been around since Homer and Socrates at least. Granted, they weren't seen as universally evil in Hellenic belief at that point, but some were, and that portion is presumably where Gygax got the idea. D&D demons descend from Hebrew and other Middle Eastern traditions on evil spirits. Unfortunately, later Greek and Roman translators used the original Greek word for the former when translating the latter, which is where the waters got muddied. But the daemons, derived from the cacodaemons of Greek belief, are distinct from demons descended from Middle Eastern belief...

 

[Hriston]

The nycadaemon and mezzodaemon both appeared in the 1e FF. Though their first appearance was actually in the Vault of the Drow, three years earlier.

It has been a long time since I perused D3 (I played through it once too, but I don't remember the daemons coming up), and I don't have a copy, but it might be interesting for the discussion if anyone knows off the top of their head what the daemons are doing in that adventure and what their business is in the Underdark. It might shed some light on why Gygax, et al. felt it was desirable to introduce a third group of fiends into the game.