D20 apocalypse

C. Baize · May 11, 2005

So do away with the water trading.
Remember... any setting or rules book is nothing more or less than a set of guidelines.
It's simple enough to say that most of the rivers are fine, but the ground is screwed, or that everything is hunky dory except for mutations, and general lawlessness... Basically... it's your setting... do with it what you will.

AdmundfortGeographer · May 11, 2005

Thomas5251212 said:
I don't hate the theme, per se, but the water trading bit just broke my suspension of disbelief into pieces.

Huh... why excactly?

Emiricol · May 11, 2005

Because groups of like-minded individuals organizing and then gaining power and wealth due to the control and distribution of limited but vital resources to which they have priviledged access due to circumstance or location is unrealistic!

Thomas5251212 · May 11, 2005

Emiricol said:
Because groups of like-minded individuals organizing and then gaining power and wealth due to the control and distribution of limited but vital resources to which they have priviledged access due to circumstance or location is unrealistic!

No, because being able to do so with a resource that is as bulky as water is. Humans use too much water to be able to survive on the amount that can be manually hauled across distance except in very small numbers; put bluntly, the populations involved just wouldn't exist if that was their only source of water. It's just not feasible in any way shape or form.

Emiricol · May 11, 2005

I have to apologize for being less than polite before (it was not warranted), but still I think you are incorrect. However - if you don't like merchants selling potable water, I'd be absolutely amazed beyond words if you were the first DM to tweak a setting for their own preferences, and ultimately that's a tiny change to make. The price of normal water isn't actually in the book, so presumably it's common enough that it wasn't felt necessary anyway, even default... So just remove the Clean water clans.

I assume there were other issues you had with DW, that being such a small issue, but I have to remember you were talking about the original Darwins World - which I had some issues with myself, though it showed tremendous promise.

Meanwhile, back to D20 Apoc - I like the way DW handled mutations but they only have 20 pages on it. If D20Future/D20Apocalypse together have a better mutation system, I think I'll probably just drop that into my games.

C. Baize · May 11, 2005

Emiricol said:
Because groups of like-minded individuals organizing and then gaining power and wealth due to the control and distribution of limited but vital resources to which they have priviledged access due to circumstance or location is unrealistic!

Yeah... Because we would never see that in reality *cough*OilBarons*cough*...

Thomas5251212 · May 11, 2005

Emiricol said:
I have to apologize for being less than polite before (it was not warranted), but still I think you are incorrect. However - if you don't like merchants selling potable water, I'd be absolutely amazed beyond words if you were the first DM to tweak a setting for their own preferences, and ultimately that's a tiny change to make. The price of normal water isn't actually in the book, so presumably it's common enough that it wasn't felt necessary anyway, even default... So just remove the Clean water clans.

It did not, to my view, seem a tiny part of the assumed politics of the setting; and given that, it damaged the rest of the setting rather strongly.

I assume there were other issues you had with DW, that being such a small issue, but I have to remember you were talking about the original Darwins World - which I had some issues with myself, though it showed tremendous promise.

Well, I mentioned a big one; I don't believe the -1/+1 attribute tradeoffs are at all a good idea. Combined with some issues with the core classes and (as I recall) some problems int he combat system, it was sufficient.

Meanwhile, back to D20 Apoc - I like the way DW handled mutations but they only have 20 pages on it. If D20Future/D20Apocalypse together have a better mutation system, I think I'll probably just drop that into my games.

I'm not entirely pleased with what D20 Future did in this regard (I think the effect of negative mutations is too strong to make the process of taking positive ones at all attractive; I realize if you're not going to have a net change in LA you have to be cautious here, but most of the negative mutations seemed problematic enough in a post holocaust setting to make it actively undesireable to go there), but I'll be interested to see if the matter is expanded on enough to be useful.

Emiricol · May 11, 2005

You keep mentioning the +1/-1 stuff. That's long gone, along with the mutant racial templates and multiple core classes, as now it is just an add-on to D20Modern. Just to clarify. Can't help on the flavor stuff though - Clean Water Clans takes up 2 pages now, so I guess I just don't see it as overwhelming as you do.

I do think if we want to keep debating why your dislike of the original Darwin's World has anything to do with DW2, another thread would be better than continuing to hijack this thread on D20 Apocalypse (apologies to Ogre for my part in that).

Thomas5251212 · May 12, 2005

Emiricol said:
You keep mentioning the +1/-1 stuff. That's long gone, along with the mutant racial templates and multiple core classes, as now it is just an add-on to D20Modern.

Being an adjuct to D20 Modern didn't tell me that would be the case, so how was I to know that?

Just to clarify. Can't help on the flavor stuff though - Clean Water Clans takes up 2 pages now, so I guess I just don't see it as overwhelming as you do.

There's more to the impact of a setting element than just the part of the book that's taken up specifically discussing it, at least if the setting is coherently put together.

I do think if we want to keep debating why your dislike of the original Darwin's World has anything to do with DW2, another thread would be better than continuing to hijack this

I never said it did have to do with DW2; all I said was there were enough things to annoy me about the original that short of getting a detailed description of the differences, it made me unwilling to buy the new one blind.

Emiricol · May 12, 2005

Thomas5251212 said:
Being an adjuct to D20 Modern didn't tell me that would be the case, so how was I to know that?

Because I specifically mentioned that DW2 fixed that. I'm basically defending DW2 against your comments, most of which have been inaccurate with the new version or misleading to DMs who might not be familiar with the game.

Thomas5251212 said:
There's more to the impact of a setting element than just the part of the book that's taken up specifically discussing it, at least if the setting is coherently put together.

So, either all settings are unalterable or they are incoherent? Because I don't think I've seen a DM yet who didn't add/remove/tweak things with whatever setting he/she was running a game in.

Thomas5251212 said:
I never said it did have to do with DW2; all I said was there were enough things to annoy me about the original that short of getting a detailed description of the differences, it made me unwilling to buy the new one blind.

All of which is fine - it isn't like we're in a gaming group together. But you said a few things that, like I say above, are wholly inaccurate now or have nothing to do with DW2 now that it is D20Modern based instead of an OGL production.

I get that you don't like the original - there was plenty not to like, despite the potential it held. But it's hard to have a conversation about what you don't like about fords when we're talking about chevies. DW2 and DW are entirely different creatures that share only the basic setting ideas. So, it'd be more accurate to say "I don't like the old Darwins World compared to D20 Apocalypse, but I don't know anything about the new version of the game." I'm just sayin'.

D20 apocalypse

C. Baize

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Emiricol

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Thomas5251212

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C. Baize

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