Elements of Magic & Low Magic Setting?

Elements of Magic (EN Publishing) is an outstanding D20 magic system variant that provides for the mage a lot of freedom in designing & casting spells, while at the same time giving a really nice flavor and style to the over-all magic system. Its very crunchy with a few quirks to it, but it reminds me of a mix between standard D&D magic, Mage by White Wolf and Ars Magica. Not a bad combination from my pont of view.

Anyways for those of you who have used EoM, what changes would you make to use it in a 'low magic" setting? Balance is essential, and I'm not trying to neuter casters, but I'm playing around with the system trying to find the right lever to use to make it fit.

So far I've played around with a few idea's.
-Area's of the world posses varying levels of mana that usually require increased effort from the mage to guaruntee the spell goes off. (inc MP's)
-Simply limiting the level of effect which can be used (least favorite)
-Base access to MP's on a limited resource.

I'm thinking of maybe using this idea in place of the IH magic system, so any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the help.

Basically, in a low-magic setting, there are two types of magic you want to strictly control-- magic that is particularly flashy, other than Illusions, and magic that has world-changing potential.

Because D&D's balance assumptions revolve almost entirely around combat, a lot of very powerful spells exist at very low levels.

What I would suggest is to leave Illusions and Divinations firmly alone, limit Conjuration (mainly) to summoning spells, and boost Evocation spells to be at least one level higher, if not two or more. This forces spellcasters to be much more subtle, without necessarily castrating them.

Yes, you'll probably have to cut down on spell points and on magic items, but if you make the "high" magics more expensive, you don't have to do much cutting. Try to give spellcasters other bonuses, such as Bardic Knowledge or non-spell magical manipulations, like the Warlock's detect magic or the Shugenja's sense elements.

You'll also have to figure out a way to handle the "economic" and "logistical" magics-- the big offenders here are spells like wall of iron, create food and drink, fabricate, and most healing spells. Even mending and repair light damage can go a long way toward making a world feel like high magic. Spells that heal hitpoints are fine as-is, but spells that cure disease or remove afflictions should suffer from a level bump. Raising the dead should be made considerably more difficult.

A lot of enchantment magic probably needs to be penalized, as well. Charm person is a brutally effective spell for most situations that don't involve combat; the reason it's so low level in D&D is because it doesn't work in combat. As a basis for comparison, suggestion is far more useful in combat, but much less powerful outside of combat, because of the limited duration and the single effect.

As far as magic items go, weapons and armor are actually fine in a low-magic world. It's the decanter of endless water or the lyre of building that make worlds high-magic.

Hope this helps.

edit: I know that specific D&D spell names aren't a big help, since you're using Elements of Magic, but I'm really trying to get across ideas and themes-- those are the kinds of magic that need limited and controlled, not merely those specific effects. I don't remember Elements of Magic well enough to tell you how well it handles the kind of world-bending magic I'm talking about.

Anyways for those of you who have used EoM, what changes would you make to use it in a 'low magic" setting? Balance is essential, and I'm not trying to neuter casters, but I'm playing around with the system trying to find the right lever to use to make it fit.

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It sounds like you don't really know what you want IMO. You want things to be balanced, you don't want casters to be neutered, and you want the system to be low-magic. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The nature of low-magic is that casting is much more difficult and that casters overall aren't as powerful as their D&D counterparts. Maybe you want rare magic? You can keep casters the same but significantly reduce the number of casters and magic items in the world.

Basically, in a low-magic setting, there are two types of magic you want to strictly control-- magic that is particularly flashy, other than Illusions, and magic that has world-changing potential.

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There are a lot more than 2. What about transportation magic? What about healing or raise dead? What about create water? Starting with everything and removing things one by one is the wrong way to go about low-magic. As Wulf always says, start with nothing and add spells as you see fit that capture the feel of the world you are creating.

I haven't looked at Elements of Magic but if you are considering anything low-magic, Grim Tales should be your first point of reference.

Well, considering the threads on using Non-lethal damage to achieve a middle-ground between Grim Tales and D&D, I think it's feasible. Hell, what he's trying to achieve sounds pretty close to what I'm trying to do for my campaign. I'm taking Wulf's advice of "start with nothing and build up", but I suspect that like me, he's trying to hit the ground running with magic in his campaign.

Unfortunately, although Wulf's advice is the best I've received thus far, it can slow down campaign and character design. For example, I may dole out a few spells to a PC spell caster, but if I want to introduce a mid- or high-level spell caster, I've got to sift through a large number of spells to come up with an acceptable list. It's perfectly feasible (and long-term probably the best method), it just can be time-consuming. Apparently D&D-style spell wonkiness is accepted more than it's tweaked.

I too, want my cake and want to eat it too. Otherwise, why the hell have the cake?

I agree with your points regarding transportation, healing, and raise dead magics - although I think those could all be safely lumped into the "Flashy" category.

Are Elements of Magic and Grim Tales compatible? Is there a formula (official or otherwise) for converting MPs to Spell Levels? The customization aspect of the spells sounds intruiging and the Grim Tales approach, as you've suggested, is an excellent starting point for low-magic games. (I would argue that it should be the starting point, period.)

Azgulor

Glassjaw, I haven't checked Grimm out yet, but I think I'll pick it up when I'm at Dragon-Con in a few weeks. I do know what I want for a low magic setting, but with a magic system as detailed / robust as EoM, finding the right way to modify it appears to be my immediate problem.

Korimyr had some great advice, especially about not using a broad brush to paint the entire system, but rather modifying each individual School of magic. I like that approach. It allows for a more tailor made fit to the setting I have in mind.

Thanks

Devyn, one day I might put out a mini-pdf with just some suggestions of this sort. But as a starter:

I designed EOM with a lot of sliding balance points. It's kinda like a chair in a luxury car. You can slide it forward or back, raise it up or down, tilt it forward or backward, and even heat it. If you toss in some extra cash, you can get a massage.

The main sliding balance points in EOM are:

• MP Limit.
• MP available.
• Cost of spell effects.
• Spell lists known.

So here'd be my suggestions for a low-magic, but not caster-neutered game. Bear in mind I only know of Iron Heroes from what I've read on these boards. Pick one or more options, mix em together, see what you like.

1. The easiest one is to restrict some spell lists. From what I read, IH characters don't need buff spells, and you might not want world-breaking magic, so just disallow Heal, Infuse, and Move spells except for Move Death, Move Life, and Move Force. You might also limit Abjure spells so that they can only be used for the Ward and Bind effects, not for damage reduction, AC boosts, etc. This still leaves you with Charm, Compel, Create, Dispel Magic, Divination, Evoke, Illusion, Scry, Spellcraft, Summon, and Transform. Or, taking a Grim Tales cue, just start off saying no magic is available, and decide what spell lists you do want to be available.

2. Limit the spell lists known. Mages get MP as usual, but they have to seek out sources to get spell lists. Maybe to learn Evoke Fire you have to defeat a fire elemental in a game of chance, and to get Charm Humanoid you have to sacrifice a point of Wisdom to the mind-raping of a dream monster. They don't get any spell lists automatically, so you can specifically decide what magic they get access to.

3. Reduce the MP Limit. You might be a powerful archmage, and can cast lots of weak spells, but no bringing back the dead, teleporting, or turning into a dragon. That doesn't really fit with the style of sword & sorcery novels, though. In those stories, powerful archmages might have lots of minor, discreet spells protecting them, but when they cast their one or two spells, those spells are dramatic and cool.

4. Maybe reduce the amount of MP you get by half. Your spells are as powerful, but you have to be more conservative with when you use them.

5. Taking another Grim Tales approach (and one I'm co-opting for my modern version of the EOM rules), you have two MP Limits. The first one is your safe limit, and it's 6 less than your character level. So if you're 8th level, you can cast 2-MP spells safely, and if 6th level or less, you have no safe limit. Then you have your actual limit, which is equal to your character level. If you cast something higher than your safe limit, you suffer some sort of drawback. You become fatigued, or you take 1 Strength damage for each MP the spell was above your safe limit (if you run out of Str, you take Con damage). Basically what this does is allow you to use lots of weak spells which won't affect the game too much, but you have to be cautious when you cast powerful spells.

I personally recommend using 5 with either 1 or 3.

GlassJaw said:

There are a lot more than 2. What about transportation magic? What about healing or raise dead? What about create water?

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Transportation: Flashy, potentially world-changing
Healing: varies by implementation
Raise dead: flashy & world-changing
Create Water: world-changing, potentially flashy.

Starting with everything and removing things one by one is the wrong way to go about low-

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oops, the above was quoted; originally the words of Wulf as paraphrased by GlassJaw.

I haven't looked at Elements of Magic but if you are considering anything low-magic, Grim Tales should be your first point of reference.

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Keep thinking of looking towards that...

Ranger -thanks for the tips, and kudo's on EoM!

And Kaos, your post caused a few neurons to momentarily flare up in my head. Particularly with a low-magic setting its not necessary to introduce a complete magic system to the players, only those elements that fit in with where the players are and where they are going.

Thanks guys, this has been a great help.

Devyn said:

Anyways for those of you who have used EoM, what changes would you make to use it in a 'low magic" setting? Balance is essential, and I'm not trying to neuter casters, but I'm playing around with the system trying to find the right lever to use to make it fit..

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I think we first need to define "low magic". For Iron Heroes, I want the following:

1) Rare magic item occurrence, with no player-created magic items. I may make an exception for a single signature item such as a staff that aids spellcasting, but for now, nothing.

2) Skill-based magic, with a consequences for failure. There need not be significant risk for mid- to high-level casters producing minor effects, but I want there to be a chance of failure for moderate and powerful effects, and I want consequences for failure to scale with the power of the spell.

3) Powerful effects, if you are willing to take a risk. If a caster wants to go for a "hail mary," I want that option to be available, and suitably risky.

4) No easy healing. Healing Lore should be the benchmark. Healing magic should be risky, and should cost more than it is really worth except in emergencies.

Devyn said:

So far I've played around with a few idea's.
-Area's of the world posses varying levels of mana that usually require increased effort from the mage to guaruntee the spell goes off. (inc MP's)
-Simply limiting the level of effect which can be used (least favorite)
-Base access to MP's on a limited resource..

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I am going to likely use mana points and mana reserve points, as well as have a strain cost (which could be non-lethal damage, reserve point damage, and/or lethal damage). Skill rolls will modify this.

Devyn said:

I'm thinking of maybe using this idea in place of the IH magic system, so any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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I am working furiously on this in my spare time, and will likely have the rudiments ready to post by next week. Hopefully, it will be sooner.

Malachias Invictus said:

I am working furiously on this in my spare time, and will likely have the rudiments ready to post by next week. Hopefully, it will be sooner.

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We seem to have much the same idea's in regards to the magic we want for IH. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with!