JollyDoc's Age of Worms (Updated 11/30, Epilogue!)

JollyDoc said:

I've actually been mulling this over as well. Time Stop seems a bit broken. I may seriously limit it to two rounds, and the group has also talked about the effects of Disjunction on magic items. We discussed simply making it a powerful dispel, in which all current spells in the AoE are gone, but magic items are not affected.

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In a short run situation (like the final battle of a campaign), it seemed like the total dispel effect was actually more powerful than the item destruction. Some characters are incredibly vulnerable without their magic defenses, and thus can be felled between the disjunction and their next action.

Humanoid type master baddies usually need their items, buffs, and contingencies to stand against a group of powerful characters as well.

Let me start by saying that I don't think Time Stop is broken for it's level...casting them ad infinitum with spontaneous ad infinitum 'heals' is, however.

If we are going down this road of discussion, however, I think limiting Time Stop to 2 rounds is not appropriate for a ninth level spell, considering that there are lower level spells that would basically let you have 2 standard actions (or two full round actions) in real time (i.e. which allow you to use instantaneous effects against others). By casting a ninth level spell, you would trading one round in real time for two rounds in stopped time. Sure, it's possible that you could get just 2 rounds now, but that would require a minimum die roll.

Having said that, I would have no problem with limiting Time Stop to a non-random 3 rounds. This would give you a reasonable amount of time to do stuff, and you would trade a below average duration (average being 3.5) for the knowledge of how long you actually had to work with. This would actually bring it closer in line with Temporal Acceleration (which is still far more powerful as it only requires a swift action to cast), which has a set duration around 3-4 rounds at ninth level.

Personally, as written, I hate Disjunction from a mechanical standpoint, and would not shed a tear if it was removed from the game entirely. No other spell has the concentrated, "Screw you, the campaign ends here tonight" power. Death is reversible by a spell or two, permanently losing your equipment (with saves) and buff spells (with no chance of parole) is not. There is pretty well no defense for it (unless you spend your life inside an extended Timeless Body or Ghostformed and hang out in the floor, ahem). The area of effect is an order of magnitude worse than a regular dispel. It screws all PC's across the board, from your buffed-up cleric/wiz PC to your low-will save 20th lvl fighter who now is swinging a sword that may as well be made of Nerf and wearing armor made of marshmellow.

If we are dead set on keeping Disjunction around, here is a possible adjustment to it: Disjunction keeps its area of effect, and all within it are subjected to a targeted dispel magic (i.e. all spells need to be checked) with a max of +25 on the dispel check. Will saves are given for all items in the area, and if failed their magic is suppressed for 1d4 rounds (a la dispel magic on items). The flavor of the spell and its functionality is still there, but now it's brought more into line with the power of other ninth level spells. At the higher levels PCs are dependent on their buffs, and a spell that strips that without any chance of failure is far too powerful in my mind.

In any case, we need to set any changes in stone on this Sunday before we start playing, and not wait until characters are on the cusp of gaining (or encountering baddies with) these abilities. Also, with high- to epic-level play fresh on our minds, this is a good time for any such discussions.

Problem is, disjunction is the only thing stopping many high level parties from completely dominating every combat with their insane buff spells. Personally, I would like to see a limit on buffs and get rid of disjunction. Just my 2 cp.

dungeon blaster said:

Problem is, disjunction is the only thing stopping many high level parties from completely dominating every combat with their insane buff spells. Personally, I would like to see a limit on buffs and get rid of disjunction. Just my 2 cp.

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There is always a defense: Dispelling the buffs. A high-level targeted dispel magic can be devastating, but like just about everything else in D&D it is subject to chance. Well-timed in a fight between two equal-level combatants, a dispel magic should remove about half of the enemies buffs.

Disjunction is not subject to SR, caster level checks, or anything...its effect is that all active spells within a 40' radius go away...welcome to Suckland, do not pass 'Go', do not collect $200.

I will agree that with all of the books out there now, the list of potential buff spells is reaching critical mass. With arcane casters, this is mitigated by the fact that you can only know so many spells. This is not the case with divine casters, who for the most part know all of the spells on their list (which includes all of the myriad splatbooks). This is where I see the problem. Maybe that's something worth looking into in your game. You could allow your divine casters immediate access to all of the spells (call them 'base' spells) in the PHB, and any spells from additional sources (CDiv, SpC, PHBII, etc.) have to be researched and learned using the cost, time, and Spellcraft check requirements that a wizard has to add spells to his spellbook.

Joachim, how about work M's Disjunction like you said, but if the caster chooses to target the spell on one person, it works as written. This, at least, will keep the party from being hosed, but will maintain a 9th-level dear-god-don't-cast-that-on-me flavor.

It will also provide a magic-item destroying spell in the game, though it would affect far fewer items per casting. While it can be tedious, item destroying can also be very handy at times.

Sound fair?

Disjunction Solution.

BTW, sorry for not posting regularly enough towards the end but WOW. What a show. Kudos all around.

I kind of like the ending. Hawk, Havok and Faust, survive and retreat. Presumably to rest, and raise their friends while bringing the cavalry. In the Realms, a Kyuss type event probably happens once a week, so I could easily see an epilogue where the age of worms is stopped by some mega force containing Chosen of Mystra, and the long term effect is is that the world looks with suspicion at the league with all their raw power, and their failure.

Imagine:

Epic level party comes into the bar and the bartender mocks them for being "losers". The heroes who did so much have no way to ever break the stigma of having failed; just because someone else succeeded trivially.

Could be an interesting follow up to the campaign. Think of the things that coming that close to success could lead to: Sloth, Greed, Avarice, Fury, Lust. I could easily see multiple stories where the party members all "fall" and try to find a way to gain the fame or reward of being a hero, the quick way.

Of course that's just me pining for Amal and Entropy again though.

Joachim said:

Personally, as written, I hate Disjunction from a mechanical standpoint, and would not shed a tear if it was removed from the game entirely. No other spell has the concentrated, "Screw you, the campaign ends here tonight" power. Death is reversible by a spell or two, permanently losing your equipment (with saves) and buff spells (with no chance of parole) is not. There is pretty well no defense for it (unless you spend your life inside an extended Timeless Body or Ghostformed and hang out in the floor, ahem). The area of effect is an order of magnitude worse than a regular dispel. It screws all PC's across the board

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In my campaign we have left it untouched mechanically, with one exception: I alter it to disjoin the Weave in the area of effect, creating an antimagic field that has to be repaired.

When my Arcane caster got to level 11 casting, (And cast his first 6th level spell) he recieved a sending. (Credit goes to Sepulchrave)

"Congratulations, on your Arcane Vision and Proficiency.

1. Thou shall not disjoin.
2. Thou shall not interfere with, or offer support to, an army on a politically valid field of battle.
3. Thou shall not murder another Archmage.
4. An infraction of the above will result in an overwhelming, and unfortunate, response from the Conclave.

The Conclave of Archmages"

This way I can keep Disjoin around, but have it be treated like an illegal spell, where the Wizards of the planet hunt you down for daring to have the gall to destroy magic. Casting Disjoin is worse than murdering one of the their members, which immediately told our parties caster that maybe disjoinging wasn't worth it.

After 4 years of campaigning. My party is almost ready for their first Epic Feats. They have slogged through Sunless Citadel, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, City of the Spider Queen, and the first half of Bastion of Broken Souls, next they just need to get the Soul Totem from the Imprisoned God and head off.

Of course, in my campaign world, the Imprisoned God is named Cthulhu. Still building him too. Yummy.

Your campaigns and story hours have always been a source of inspiration for my campaigns. Can't wait to see you take on Savage Tides.

-That guy who built the Juggernaut, Blob, Spiral, Pyro, Avalanche, Mystique, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver: The Brotherhood. (Adding non-associated Monk levels to Elementals is really silly.)

Felix said:

Joachim, how about work M's Disjunction like you said, but if the caster chooses to target the spell on one person, it works as written. This, at least, will keep the party from being hosed, but will maintain a 9th-level dear-god-don't-cast-that-on-me flavor.

It will also provide a magic-item destroying spell in the game, though it would affect far fewer items per casting. While it can be tedious, item destroying can also be very handy at times.

Sound fair?

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That would be more reasonable...and it would also make it subject to Spell Turning so you would have at least some form of defense against it. The problem isn't Mord's area of effect...It isn't the auto dispel...It isn't the disjoining of magic items...It isn't the % chance of artifact destruction...It's the fact that it has all of the above attributes. However, having said that, your adjustment would makes it far, far more powerful for PC's who no longer have to worry about how to fit a 40' foot radius effect such that it doesn't effect their comrades...BBEG's with access to this spell are not likely to be saddled with this kind of moral compunction as it relates to their lackeys' buffs and magic items.

CrusadeDave said:

This way I can keep Disjoin around, but have it be treated like an illegal spell, where the Wizards of the planet hunt you down for daring to have the gall to destroy magic. Casting Disjoin is worse than murdering one of the their members, which immediately told our parties caster that maybe disjoinging wasn't worth it.

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Thanks for the kind words, Dave. Problem with your plan above (as I see it) is that now you make the spell, as written, even more of an anti-PC effect.

Take it this way...as it is written now you have a spell that has such a large area that every PC caster who uses it fears de-buffing and de-equipping his allies (unless he is an arch-mage with the imminently powerful Mastery of Shaping). He only uses it in the direst of emergencies, and then only when he has the space and range to do so. In your world, now he has the threat of an Mega-Arcanist Beat-Down to ensue when he actually does it.

What about Kyuss? What is he going to care if a bunch of crunchy wizards don't like him disjoining the planet...He's a God...BRING IT, BITCHES!

(I still gnash my teeth when I think about monk being a non-associated class for anything when it would clearly be more powerful than a level in any other class)

Surely, at that level, there's a very effective counter to Disjunction? Namely Wish. Something along the lines of, 'I wish that that previously cast Disjunction had no effect'.

Great story first of all.

My group has talked about Disjunction recently... and I guess it depends on how you're going to use it. I guess it's kind of a DM PC agreement right now that if one starts using it a lot the other will.

The problem with making Disjunction less powerful is that in a way you make it more powerful because it will be tossed around more frequently.

I see it almost as the Nuke of D&D. I don't want to use it because then someone might use it on me.