Is optimization on a common ground such as teamwork good for an rpg?

Charwoman Gene

Adventurer
I see no greater barrier to fun in team-based optimization than character-based optimization. A better approach is to fix the math so the "optimized" path is only about 25-50% more effective than the pick cool stuff that seems to go together path.
 

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xechnao

First Post
I'm talking about the fact that RPGs are a group activity in which you attempt to achieve goals with your friends in order to have fun. Whether that goal is successful tactical combat, or Oscar-winning roleplaying, the end goal is for everyone at the table to have fun. It's cooperative.

When you focus the game on an individual having fun, the game easily excludes other people.
I understand what you are saying and I think you do not get the problematic here. Making sure there is fun for each individual within a group. This is what mechanics are for. I wonder if you have carefully read what I have been writing in the thread.

No, because it's a group activity. The group is supposed to have fun, not just one person who "wins." If your fun is gleaned from beating everyone else, then maybe a cooperative group game (which the vast majority of RPGs are designed to be) is not the best one for that.

The group is made of characters. In tabletop rpgs each player impersonates (alternative verbs: builds, creates, plays) a character -not the group. Each player in a group should be able to have fun by what his character wants to do -rules amd mechanics are made to take care of this.

Did I miss the "4e is the first edition of D&D that values Teamwork" memo?

I always thought all editions of D&D valued teamwork. Fighters defended mages. Clerics healed injured allies. Rangers and rogues flanked/sneak attacked. Bards waste actions in combat granting bonuses.

All 4e did was spread those roles around a little more and gave everyone a chance to do a little something extra with them...

I am talking about when design focuses to make it its priority -when it is design's focus instead of a necessary tool that has to be used along with others to address your problem.
 
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The Little Raven

First Post
I understand what you are saying and I think you do not get the problematic here.

I get it.

You're saying that making sure the game focuses on the group having fun is a problem, because it doesn't focus on making sure an individual has fun. I get that. I disagree completely because it's a cooperative multiplayer game, not a competitive multiplayer game.

Making sure there is fun for each individual within a group. This is what mechanics are for.

When the entire group has fun, each individual has fun (otherwise, the entire group isn't having fun).

I wonder if you have carefully read what I have been writing in the thread.

I wonder the same thing about you. You keep talking about individuals as if they were more important than the group as a whole, as if one person's fun is more important than five people's fun. You also don't seem to notice that if the entire group is having fun, then every individual is having fun, and the game has succeeded at it's goal: group fun.

The group is made of characters. In tabletop rpgs each player impersonates (alternative verbs: builds, creates, plays) a character -not the group. Each player in a group should be able to have fun by what his character wants to do -rules amd mechanics are made to take care of this.

Yeah, that's called teamwork. You have fun by making the group succeed by filling your role. Players who play defenders like to beat things up, while keeping their allies safe from threats. Players who play healers like to keep their allies alive and fighting on. Doing so helps the group at the same time. Thus, working as a team to overcome challenges means everyone gets to act within their role, and the group as a whole (which encompasses each individual in that group) has fun. Thus, teamwork leads to fun.

Games that focus on the fun of individuals over the fun of the group tend to promote spotlight hogs and self-sustaining characters who don't need to work in a group, and that's not what cooperative games are about.
 

Slander

Explorer
The core framework ensures that your character will fill a useful and meaningful role in combat without trying to hard. This is valuable when you are trying to generate a positive first impression on new players. New players (and new DMs) are the target audience when the rules discuss roles and party optimization.

Optimization, however, is not required to play the game. Indeed, you can still grow unoptimized characters in 4E, but you have to work at it. From a design perspective, it makes far more sense to require rules mastery to grow an unoptimized character than it does to grow an optimized one.

But even beyond an individual character's growth, party optimization is not required; party synergy is. An optimized party (however it is defined) can fail if they do not work together, and a non-optimized party can succeed if they do. Profound, I know, but I feel that people equate optimization with synergy and subsequently feel rebuffed by 4E if they do not want to optimize their character or party. You don't have to optimize either, but you do have to work together (well, unless you're into those dog-eat-dog campaigns).

You're non-optimized party will have to address situations differently than an optimized one, and may have to work a bit harder or be more creative to achieve success in some situations. But if that wasn't the case, exactly what meaning would "optimized" have?

And as a final thought, none of this touches on the options and opportunities characters and parties have for development outside of combat, something that roles, (most) powers and 90% of the PHB don't address. There is a whole world outside of how your character fights where you can plant your flag and define your character with little regard for what the rest of the party is doing.
 

xechnao

First Post
I get it.

You're saying that making sure the game focuses on the group having fun is a problem, because it doesn't focus on making sure an individual has fun. I get that. I disagree completely because it's a cooperative multiplayer game, not a competitive multiplayer game.
No. I am saying that focusing optimization on teamwork might not provide fun eventually to the group's players -fun in a cooperative, competitive or mixed way (or whatever: it is you that comes with these MMORPG situations here (PvP, PvE) that I do not think they apply to the nature of tabletop rpgs and their goals as you might think they do -they do not apply at least for my tastes, from my knowledge and experience with tabletops.


When the entire group has fun, each individual has fun (otherwise, the entire group isn't having fun).
Groups can't have fun: they are not logic organisms. You ask persons if they have fun. There is not such a creature called "group" that you can ask it if it has fun.


I wonder the same thing about you. You keep talking about individuals as if they were more important than the group as a whole, as if one person's fun is more important than five people's fun. You also don't seem to notice that if the entire group is having fun, then every individual is having fun, and the game has succeeded at it's goal: group fun.
I am not saying that one person's fun is not more important than five people's fun. Each one's is and must be equally important for the game's design goals. I am saying that teamwork focused design might fail to do this for everybody in a tabletop rpg as it might fail to challenge each one of the group.

Yeah, that's called teamwork. You have fun by making the group succeed by filling your role. Players who play defenders like to beat things up, while keeping their allies safe from threats. Players who play healers like to keep their allies alive and fighting on. Doing so helps the group at the same time. Thus, working as a team to overcome challenges means everyone gets to act within their role, and the group as a whole (which encompasses each individual in that group) has fun. Thus, teamwork leads to fun.
These roles are not enough fun for my tastes in the long run. I know I want something more challenging and thus dynamic regarding my relations with others.

Games that focus on the fun of individuals over the fun of the group tend to promote spotlight hogs and self-sustaining characters who don't need to work in a group, and that's not what cooperative games are about.

I agree 100% that these games are not fun for me. What I am saying is that it is more complicated than a focus on the one or the other. This is why I tell you I do not think you have paid attention to what I am talking about.
 

Obryn

Hero
I have been thinking about this. For the moment my conclusion is that it runs contrary to a roleplaying game's needs. Character building decisions are made to influence the decisions of others -it is an interactive game. But if the optimization is not based on a character's ideals but on team everybody's course is already set and what it only remains is to follow the story the dm addresses -as soon as they have learned the optimization procedure.

So perhaps what a new generation of rpgs needs is powers that alter the world in a certain way that is significant and influential to others so one must still focus on his character through a common environment each one can influence its proprieties. A show of each players and PCs ideals that create new ideals -even for the DM.
You mean like, "We need a cleric and a rogue or we're screwed?"

Yeah, requiring both classes could be a bummer when everyone just wanted to make their own characters.

-O
 


Particle_Man

Explorer
How characters in 4e can influence the group's decisions in ways characters have to compromise and through this compromise challenge their characters ? I seen the possibilities that can create the intent, idea or suspicion in 3e (if it has been successful or not it is another story) but haven't heard anything about for 4e.

Please clarify with an example. This is going over my head. The nearest interpretation I can make is as if you have a group of actors and each one of them wants to play Hamlet, but if you don't have someone playing Ophelia, Claudius, etc., you don't have the play.

Is that what you mean? A party where no one wants to play a Cleric, Warlord or Paladin, but someone makes the sacrifice in order to give the group healing ability?

I think 4e does better than previous editions as a party can survive without a cleric, at least. I suppose the group could even get by on healing potions, with an understanding DM, if none of them wanted to play a healer.

Ah, the DM. The solution to this problem! If players are dead set on their character concepts, then let the DM adjust the game world to accomodate them? Or are their character concepts logically incompatible "I am the only son of the Emperor of the World!" "No, I am!"?
 

Mallus

Legend
I mean you have this concept of a character on who he is and what he wants.
Whose job is to play on a team.

I believe it would be more interesting if it could instead be a dynamic play on what each player wants in contrast to others.
PC's should cooperate in a fight if they want to survive.

They are free to pursue other goals once the fight is over.

Badly designed combat rules are not rightly considered a characterization aid...
 

AllisterH

First Post
I think it is a matter of hitting thr right balance between individual optimization and group teamwork.

Assuming this is a 4E discussion,

Let's keep in mind that in a standard encounter, a group of 5 level X PCs should are already favoured to win versus 5 level X monsters.

Compare say the human guard (a 2nd level creature IIRC) with the equivalent 2nd level character and you'll see that the PC _IS_ better and this is basically true across all comparisons (barring a couple of things like the 1st level swarm)

However, if we have 5 monsters, the synergies tha a cagey DM can use means that the power of the monsters is not simply 5 * monster level X but a higher factor which is where the PCs have to compensate with their own teamwork.

The thing is, this woulld have been true as well in 3E but the optimization on the PC side and the relatively "blink and you're dead" combat meant that in 3E the DM could not bring those tactics to bear in sufficicent time (barring an ambush scenario)
 

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