D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 modified Con, HP, and healing sugres?

Okay, at this point I'm fed up with 3.5 as it deals with Constitution and hit points. It's just too potent at high level. I'm thinking of going to the 4th Ed rules that you get your full con score once to HP (rather than modifier per level). I want to institute something like healing surges. I feel like 3.5 has this view that your resources all start at max and slowly get chipped away until it is time to rest; so you start high and then decrease over time. I prefer the 4E view that resources, like powers/spells and hitpoints, are somewhat in the middle and that things you do can renew then... but you don't start at the "high" point.

So, in point form, here is what I'm doing:
- Con score once to HP
- set HP (1/2 hit dice rounded up, so either 4, 5, 6, or even 7 for a d12, with no d4s as per pathfinder rules... I guess maybe for PrCs)
- racial bonuses to hitpoints. As per pathfinder suggestions, probably between 4 and 8 extra hit points depending on how "hardy" the race is.
- characters get "healing surges" equal to Con modifier + 1/tier (every 10 levels) plus any bonus surges per day
- using a healing surge is a standard action which heals 1/4 (rounded down) of the character's HP. After using a healing surge in battle, the character may not use another healing surge until d4+1 rounds has passed. A healing surge may also be used to remove 1 pt of ability damage.
- feats can help healing surges in many ways.
>There will be feat to reduce the action it takes to use it from a standard to a move, and then another down to a minor/swift, and then again to a free action (on your own) or an immediate action (on any other turn)
> there will be a feat to reduce the cool-down time from d4+1 to 2 rounds, then another to bring it to 1 round (meaning they can healing surge once every round)
> there will be a feat to grant extra healing surges equal to 1 + 1/tier
> I will use the 4E toughness feat which is +5hp/tier (and remove all other "toughness" feats)
> there will be a feat to allow characters to spend a healing surge to get 1/2 their normal healing surge value in temporary HP
> perhaps a feat that characters can spend a healing surge to get DR equal to their Con modifier for 1 round
> perhaps a feat that characters can spend a healing surge to get energy resistance of their choice equal to their Con modifier for 1 round

Thematically, I want fighter-types to be seen as so combat oriented not because they have huge HP, but because they can renew themselves really easily (while caster-types can't so much). Also, I want to alleviate the need for a party healing and making it more about down-time, short rests, and self-moderated resources (rather than magic healing).

Anyway, suggestions, comments? Something more specific than "I don't like it" would be great. If the overall hp are chopped down so much, maybe I need more reactive, defensive uses of healing surges built into the system so people don't get chopped up in one round of combat. As per other threads I've posted, I'm also trying to find way to consolidate both the number of attack rolls (preferably all into one roll), reduce the overall number of attacks, and increase movement and mobility in combat. I'm basically trying to find juicy bits of 4E and back-convert them to 3.5.

Take a look at Trailblazer. (From Bad Axe Games, not to be confused with Pathfinder from Paizo.) It introduces the 10 minute rest (that doesn't use resources), reduces a full attack to 2 iteratives (and bonuses for TWF, monk Flurry, haste, etc.), and is fully compatible with 3.5.

It's not as far as you're trying to go, but it might help you find your sweet spot better. Plus, the game-spine analysis (Chapter 1) is worth the price of the .pdf all by itself; given that chapter, the rest of the book is super-awesome free bonus content.

Good luck.

Bladesinger_Boy said:

Okay, at this point I'm fed up with 3.5 as it deals with Constitution and hit points. It's just too potent at high level.

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I don't understand. What do you mean by that? It seems to me that under default 3.5 rules, constitution's bonus to hitpoints scales linearly. That is, assuming a constant constitution, the percentage of your hitpoints which are due to CON are on average constant. The effect constitution has on your game should be roughly the same at 15th level as it is at 2nd, because both it and your HD contribute the same amoung at each level.

Is your complaint perhaps against magical augmentation of Constitution at high levels?

Are you trying to limit the value of magical healing?

Are you trying to elimenate the massive damage rule?

Are you trying to make low level characters more durable?

I'm not sure I fully understand your purpose here, so I can't comment on whether you are achieving it.

For example, if your number of healing surges depends most directly on your Con, then you might actually be making Con a more important factor in determining your effective hit points when your intention is to make it less.

using a healing surge is a standard action which heals 1/4 (rounded down) of the character's HP.

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For example, this rule means that the 18 Con fighter has on average about twice as many hit points as the 10 Con fighter, which means he's somewhat more advantaged relative to the 10 Con fighter than he would be otherwise.

Im in much the same boat. I hate the attrition warfare of D&D but want to use the skeleton of 3.x pretty much.

At the very least, im going to use Con as Wounds and Average HD roll rounded down without con mod as Vitality (see Unearthed Arcana for vitality wounds rules).

I hate healing surges by the way. I d rather use an accelerated regen rate for vitality to represent simply rest and recovery, while wounds will remain hard to heal.

I may go even further if I can work out how my new dynamic defence system might accomodate even lower hps. Balance is a tricky thing though isnt it?

I really don't feel like paying for an digital version of a D&D book, but I'm sure Trailblazer is fine.

To Celebrim, I want PCs overall HP to me lower & to be consistent (no rolling for HP). CON now influences how many healing surges they have. I really don't care if they overall possible HP with the healing this provides is double or triple their previous amount; it is that their maximum is much lower and it takes turn/time economy to heal themselves in combat. And since HP is lower, they need to more dynamically switch between offensive and defensive modes.

With a flat healing or regen rate, then the fighters heal as fast as the mages. I still want fighters to be more durable in some ways; just not have a crazy amount of HP. In this system, the fighter is more the guy who ready to go for another fighter a minute or two after the other one just finished, while everyone else is like ", I'm still hurt; damn, you got a lot of energy boy!"

Bladesinger_Boy said:

I really don't feel like paying for an digital version of a D&D book, but I'm sure Trailblazer is fine.

To Celebrim, I want PCs overall HP to me lower & to be consistent (no rolling for HP). CON now influences how many healing surges they have. I really don't care if they overall possible HP with the healing this provides is double or triple their previous amount; it is that their maximum is much lower and it takes turn/time economy to heal themselves in combat. And since HP is lower, they need to more dynamically switch between offensive and defensive modes.

With a flat healing or regen rate, then the fighters heal as fast as the mages. I still want fighters to be more durable in some ways; just not have a crazy amount of HP. In this system, the fighter is more the guy who ready to go for another fighter a minute or two after the other one just finished, while everyone else is like ", I'm still hurt; damn, you got a lot of energy boy!"

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I suspect your changes are going to have lots of unforeseen consequences and might not even accomplish what you are looking for in them. I think that your changes are going to result in pretty much the same overall gameplay as if you scaled down the massive damage save drastically. You are going to have alot of hit and run gameplay/tactics, you are going to greatly discourage going to melee, and you are going to have alot of random deaths.

I don't understand why you don't want 'fighters...not to have a crazy amount of hp'. Relatively speaking, fighters are much less durable in 3e than they were in earlier editions (for example, in 1e they got a big bonus to hit points for having high con as a class ability). Are fighters running wild in your game? Because, they aren't noted as a particularly unbalanced or powerful class at most tables.

Bladesinger_Boy said:

I really don't feel like paying for an digital version of a D&D book, but I'm sure Trailblazer is fine.

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So head over to [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Trailblazer-New-Horizons-3-5-Roleplaying/dp/1449503608/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273848912&sr=1-1]Amazon[/ame] and PoD that bitch. Or whatever you do to not pay for digital editions.
I only mention it because it addresses most 3.x issues in balanced, fun, and OGL-compatible ways.

Your specific issue doesn't seem to be related to game play, just to numbers on paper, so it may not be very helpful for this project. Still, the spine analysis alone (chapter 1) is worth the entry price and may help you develop fun and mechanically stable house rules for the future.

Regardless, good luck.

One of the biggest problems I see posters in the house rules forums have is they don't start with their goals. They start with mechanics without alot of consideration for whether the mechanics will actually help them attain their goals.

The statement of your goals was as follows:

Thematically, I want fighter-types to be seen as so combat oriented not because they have huge HP, but because they can renew themselves really easily (while caster-types can't so much). Also, I want to alleviate the need for a party healing and making it more about down-time, short rests, and self-moderated resources (rather than magic healing).

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To begin with, what about your suggested mechanics makes fighters more able to renew themselves than caster types? As best as I can tell, your ability to recover hitpoints is solely dependent on your constitution. Casters can have just as good or often better constition than non-casters (wizards for example often can get by with just Intelligence and Constitution). So, this doesn't meet your goal. Meeting that goal most directly means that the number of healing surges should not depend on constitution, but entirely on class (or BAB).

Likewise, your mechanics are such that you've basically imposed a 'feat tax' on all players. Being able to use your healing surge at will as a swift action is so good, that pretty much every character will have to spend 1-4 feats on the healing surge feat tree because NOTHING else he could spend a feat on will be as good or as important.

Also you've done nothing to make magical healing less important. If anything, you've made magical healing MORE important, because since everyone is closer to death at all times, its more important than ever to be able to recieve magical healing during combat. While we are on the subject, I'm observing that 4e has a serious problem with balance based on assumptions of party composition. I've read alot of 4e threads on 'grind' and balance, and some groups say that 4e plays fast and is highly lethal and others say that its grindy, boring and that there party is never in danger of death. While there are some encounter design issues at play, one of the real determining factors seems to be the number of leaders in the party. With zero leaders in the party and lots of strikers you get fast lethal combat. With two leaders in the party, you get grinds where the ready availability of healing as free actions absolutely overwhelms the ability of monsters to inflict damage. I see your rules going down that path only more so, because 4e at least has some balancing features. If you try to integrate this into 3e, you are going to get a situation where to avoid TPKs, you'll have to alter CR in such a way that if magical healing is available the encounter will represent little threat.

I don't really think you are accomplishing any of your goals, nor do I necessarily understand where your goals are coming from. What are you seeing in your game play that makes you think you could improve the game by providing more short rests, giving characters and monsters half as many hitpoints (but the same ability to inflict damage!), and so forth?