MtG: Essentials.

So I've read through the reviews and seen the unboxings and looked at all the pretty pictures and I am left with one (to me) shocking conclusion.

Essentials is Magic the Gathering in a box.

Now, before you go off on a rant about how this isn't the case and yahda, yahda, first let me point out a few things.

First and foremost, I am a pretty solid fan of 4e. I've tested it, I've evaluated it, and I've done so through the eyes of someone wary of a new edition since coming to the conclusion that 3.x just wasn't my type of game (that's not to say it's a bad game, just not what I prefer). I didn't feel burnt, so much, by 3.x but I definitely felt 'burnt out'.

After that sort of minute observation, I've come to the conclusion that 4e is my type of game. And for the most part, the rules and improvements and changes and errata, I feel are all moving forward and creating the legacy of a great edition.

So, after all that puffery, I want it to be clear as to where I'm coming from when I say that I think the Essentials line is mimicking MtG and capitalising on the success and market penetration of MtG amongst young fans.

In other words, I think this is a good thing, and a very smart move.

The tokens, the dungeon tiles, the maps and adventures and more complex rules to introduce roleplaying to an audience via a familiar vehicle, ie. power cards, is brilliant. I would be willing to even bet that WotC are recommending or maybe just hinting that the sets should be placed near MtG cards and touted as 'the next step'.

It's like the missing link to our ancestors. The miniatures in collectible boxes didn't do it. The power card sets didn't do it. D&D Encounters won't do it and the RPGA certainly can't. But you get a couple of kids thinking, "Oh, cool, this is like, MtG on Red Bull, dude!" (yes, I know kids don't say dude anymore, but I still do), and it could be the next revolution in gaming, equivalent to the iPod.

Wouldn't that be cool?

Wait, I know all that was important, but...

... kids don't say dude anymore? O.O

This post is mildly confusing.

What I extract from it is "Essentials is good because it's an effort to bring in more gamers from ground-level, and it shows perpetuation of the kind of continual growth, iterative updating, and exceptions-based design that Magic has proven successful with and 4e has already been making use of."

I suppose I can agree with that.

Almacov said:

This post is mildly confusing.

Click to expand...

As I said, after visually seeing what was inside the red box, my initial gut reaction was that it was strikingly familiar to MtG, just with extra stuff. The power cards are the obvious tie-in, but the tokens, minis, tiles, etc. all seem to be designed around being natural progressions of those cards. The next step, an evolution of MtG rather than being watered down D&D.

I feel that this was the aim. That they're marketing D&D to the younger MtG crowd, through the red box by making it as familiar as possible. The similarities are really very striking and I don't believe they're by mistake.

A fine post from K R. R. Trollkin.


Mod Edit:
Clue #1: The supposed "troll" is doing some analysis, and saying something's actually cool.

Clue #2: You have only insult to add to the discussion.

Conclusion: You are the one being a jerk and troll, not him.

Let's have no more jerkishness in the thread, please. Thanks, all.

I'm going to start off by saying that I don't have a copy of the Red Box, yet, so there may be more going on than I realize.

However, power cards are not new. They're not being introduced with the Red Box. Power cards have been around as long as the Character Builder has been. Every character I've printed comes with power cards. They're not on card stock, though I could print them so if I wished, but they are power cards. Plus, they've been selling power card decks for Fourth Edition classes for some time now. I've seen them sitting on the shelf at the bookstore for six months or longer now.

I guess my point is, that while Wizards of the Coast may be trying to tap into the M:tG crowd and bring them over to D&D, I don't think power cards are their method of choice. And even if they are, power cards are not some new gimmick introduced in the Red Box.

I think you're kind of right, but I don't completely agree with your reasoning.


I think, like Magic, 4e creates a very small subset of "core" rules. (Small enough that they can pretty much be summed up in the red box.)

On top of these core rules, they layer other rules, that modify the game to do whatever it needs to do. This creates the "experience." (Like the cards create the feel of the Magic Game.)

Essentials and the original books have somewhat of a different "experience" to them. If you like a certain feel or experience, you can select that idea and roll with it. Get everything in that line. (I think Essentials was going for a more classic D&D feel for instance.)

But- since they're all using the same core rules, they're all compatible, so you can swap various pieces in and out and make your own customized feel. It won't hurt the math and throw things off.

You can see this idea stretched even further out with Gamma World... As they said it's a totally different experience, but if you know how to play 4e, you already know the rules, aside from a few additional ones that are Gamma World specific. You can even use monsters and stuff from Gamma World in other D&D games if you want.

I think the same will be true when the Ravenloft Setting comes out next year. They mentioned that it's entirely playable on it's own, but also functions as a D&D setting. My guess is it will have its own classes, and races and powers and items so that if you just want a Ravenloft D&D experience then you are set- but since it uses the 4e system you'll be able to mix it together with anything you already have.

Now I know that "generic systems" isn't a new thing at all. There are a bunch of them, and d20 even can be called generic...

I think the key here though is the idea that the core rules are so compact. This lets the "feel" of the game come in majority from the layered on top parts the experience of playing the game feel really different even though everything basically functions under the same math, and basic core rules.

Kzach said:

So I've read through the reviews and seen the unboxings and looked at all the pretty pictures and I am left with one (to me) shocking conclusion.

Essentials is Magic the Gathering in a box.

Now, before you go off on a rant about how this isn't the case and yahda, yahda, first let me point out a few things.

First and foremost, I am a pretty solid fan of 4e. I've tested it, I've evaluated it, and I've done so through the eyes of someone wary of a new edition since coming to the conclusion that 3.x just wasn't my type of game (that's not to say it's a bad game, just not what I prefer). I didn't feel burnt, so much, by 3.x but I definitely felt 'burnt out'.

After that sort of minute observation, I've come to the conclusion that 4e is my type of game. And for the most part, the rules and improvements and changes and errata, I feel are all moving forward and creating the legacy of a great edition.

So, after all that puffery, I want it to be clear as to where I'm coming from when I say that I think the Essentials line is mimicking MtG and capitalising on the success and market penetration of MtG amongst young fans.

In other words, I think this is a good thing, and a very smart move.

The tokens, the dungeon tiles, the maps and adventures and more complex rules to introduce roleplaying to an audience via a familiar vehicle, ie. power cards, is brilliant. I would be willing to even bet that WotC are recommending or maybe just hinting that the sets should be placed near MtG cards and touted as 'the next step'.

It's like the missing link to our ancestors. The miniatures in collectible boxes didn't do it. The power card sets didn't do it. D&D Encounters won't do it and the RPGA certainly can't. But you get a couple of kids thinking, "Oh, cool, this is like, MtG on Red Bull, dude!" (yes, I know kids don't say dude anymore, but I still do), and it could be the next revolution in gaming, equivalent to the iPod.

Wouldn't that be cool?

Click to expand...

A) Could you list the similarities between Essentials and MtG again? I think i didn´t quite get that.

B) The idea that CCC and RPG markets can somehow pollinate each other is as old as TSR doing Spellfire and Wotc buying D&D. It hasn´t happened yet, and i don´t see why it should happen now.

C)
I´m sorry, but this is where this thread is headed:

Kzach said:

Wouldn't that be cool?

Click to expand...

Yes it would!

I think something promoting D&D and pen & paper (and game bits) gaming is only a good thing; cannot ever be bad. One thing that always seems to surprise me when MtG and RPGs are mentioned in the same sentence is the elitism that bleeds out regarding the trading card game. Criticize MtG for being a money/time sink conconcted by pure evil? Sure, why not. Criticize it as being a different experience not wanted in one's RPGing? Of course. Criticize it for being dumb/mindless and a dumb/mindless influence that should go nowhere near D&D? Hold on a second. Playing MtG at an elite level intellectually (and even in some cases creatively!) leaves RPGs for dead.

So when good points are made (such as by the original poster here) linking the two, please take a second to chill and not automatically react as if the D&D/RPGing sky is falling. The thing I'm trying to do is imagine if in 1983 when I opened my red box in complete joy and amazement, what would have been my reaction if it had have contained the 2010 box contents? [Surely even more joy and amazement] For me, the stepping stone was Fighting Fantasy gamebooks into the red box into AD&D. If MtG to Essentials to D&D [to Pathfinder] works (even if only in a handful of cases), then why complain?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Keefe the Thief said:

A) Could you list the similarities between Essentials and MtG again? I think i didn´t quite get that.

Click to expand...

That's because I'm not saying they are the same.

As Ceres pointed out, Power Cards have been around for awhile. I also pointed this out, earlier.

I play D&D Encounters at a gaming store that is set-up around the business model of having space for people to play various games. They run tournaments for MtG all the time. So I guess part of my reaction is from being around this environment of late.

The point I was trying to make was that it was FAMILIAR. Not carbon-copies or one system ripping off another, but rather upon seeing what was inside, the closes ups of the power-cards and tokens and tiles and maps, my first thought was, "Wow, that reminds me of MtG!"

So sure, power cards have been around, but you look at them and don't immediately put D&D and MtG together in the same thought, unless you're a conspiracy theorist. I feel that they have deliberately gone for the FEEL of MtG with the style of the new Red Box contents. There was, to me at least, an immediate connection between the two.

Maybe I should've posted this with a link to the unboxing video in an MtG forum and gotten their reaction. I'd be curious to see if they made the same connection, as really, that's what I'm saying will happen.