D&D 5E How Deadly is a "deadly" encounter, on average?

I'm whipping up some encounters for my next session (so my players stay out!), and while I realize we've got some guidelines from the basic DM rules (and the very cool asmor online generator others have been linking of late-- http://asmor.com/5e/monsters/#/encounter-builder ), I'm curious to see how well others have been faring.

For example, my supposedly hard BBEG from last session was basically a cakewalk for my 6 4th level PCs. (Admittedly, my group does have rather high ability scores, as I let the group keep the scores they originally had as 1st level 4e characters):

2 cultists - CR 1/8 each
2 skeletons - CR 1/4 each
1 priest - CR 2
1 modified vampire spawn - CR 4 (a lot of guesswork here in making the CR 5 into a CR 4, so perhaps this was the issue. )

By the numbers, it was a Hard encounter...but it really didn't feel that way.

So, that said...what has your experience been like with encounter building in 5e, DMs? Does the math seem to hold up for larger (6+) groups? Is it okay to use a a creature with a CR of one higher than the group's average level?

If we want to get really specific, I'm looking for feedback on throwing the same party against one CR 5 and four CR 1/2s...but that's coming up as well beyond deadly. Am I setting myself up for a TPK, or just a really tough fight? (Mods feel free to move this if it's more appropriately put in a different forum, but this seemed as good a place as any to discuss some of the general mechanics of encounter design vs. customizing a specific monster or character)

1. The encounter building guidelines work well for my group.
2. There are rules for larger parties in there. I am paraphrasing but I think they use the value multiplier one slot lower.
3. I have found that a group can combat a CR one level higher. I only have experience below 5th level though.
4. Six fourth level characters should be able to take on a CR 5 and some 1/2s

If they have high ability scores (and 4e had a much higher baseline), than they've effectively got at least a fractional level advantage over the baseline 5e assumption. And while a CR 5 and 4 CR 1/2s is deadly for 6 level 4 PCs, it's not even hard for 6 level 5 PCs. So it'll probably work out OK. You might just want to treat the party as about 1/2 a level ahead until level 10 or so (by which time even "normal" 5e PCs will have maxed out their main stats).

trentonjoe said:

1. The encounter building guidelines work well for my group.
2. There are rules for larger parties in there. I am paraphrasing but I think they use the value multiplier one slot lower.
3. I have found that a group can combat a CR one level higher. I only have experience below 5th level though.
4. Six fourth level characters should be able to take on a CR 5 and some 1/2s

Click to expand...

Re number 2: I was taking the group size into consideration with the math. (The asmor link does this automatically I think, and I found a spreadsheet that does similar xp calculations automatically)

bganon said:

If they have high ability scores (and 4e had a much higher baseline), than they've effectively got at least a fractional level advantage over the baseline 5e assumption. And while a CR 5 and 4 CR 1/2s is deadly for 6 level 4 PCs, it's not even hard for 6 level 5 PCs. So it'll probably work out OK. You might just want to treat the party as about 1/2 a level ahead until level 10 or so (by which time even "normal" 5e PCs will have maxed out their main stats).

Click to expand...

That's kind of what I was thinking given the boosted ability scores, but I wasn't confident enough in my system mastery of either 4e or 5e math to know for sure--it helps having someone agree with you!


Thanks to you both for your feedback--I'll give you xp when I'm not on my phone

I'm finding that as the players understand their characters more, they are mastering situational awareness. For example, the ranger last battle dropped a spike growth down in front of a corridor a guard ran down. This prevented 2 invisible enemies from just running out and causing trouble because running through 10-15 feet of spike growth was not something they wanted to do.

So when the barbarian jumped across the spike growth thinking he was facing a bunch of mooks only to face a barghast and a high level duergar fighter, he disengaged and the spell casters got to nail the now visible enemies since they attacked him before he jumped away.

Battle would have gone very differently if the invisible enemies had made it into the main room. When players can control the shape of the battle the hard battle goes much easier. Conversely, I've hit the party with a well run ambush and something they should have handled easily, almost led to party deaths when the paladin failed his paralysis save. Got to love ghasts.

The set-up for a fight is definitely key. My BBEG fight was in a big wide open room / evil temple and there was way too much room to maneuver.

I ran a big fight against an enhanced (multi-armed) Vampire Spawn and 6 Zombies yesterday. The party consisted of 5 3rd level characters, including a cleric, but only one magic weapon. They managed, having used all their spells and one character bleeding out.
I totally winged it and it worked out great!

I just entered that encounter on that website linked above. It say Ludicrous. I disagree. Not even deadly.

So far the PCs have been much more durable than I was expecting. We've only had one PC hit 0 hp, and that was when an owlbear completely got the drop on them and hit him with a critical right out of the gate. The rest of the party (2nd level, five members) then made short work of the owlbear.

Not that I'm objecting: I like being able to throw more tougher critters at the party without worrying about a TPK each time. It's just surprising.

-TG

[MENTION=492]Trevalon Moonleirion[/MENTION]
The encounter multiplier for # enemies appears to be designed for an "average party size (4-5 PCs)" and for monsters of roughly the same CR.

When you increase party size / effectiveness, and particularly when you mix high CR with low CR creatures for mid-and-higher-level PCs, I don't think the multiplier really works.

For your party in that encounter - worth 1,700 XP before applying any multiplier - I would probably use no multiplier.

The Medium difficulty upper threshold for your party is 1,500 XP.
The Hard difficulty upper threshold is 2,250 XP.
The Deadly difficulty threshold is 3,000 XP.

Thus, with no multiplier, I'd anticipate your encounter to be technically "Hard" (though closer to the "Medium" side of the spectrum.