D&D 5E Alternate ability generation rule

BASHMAN · Nov 3, 2014

Crothian said:
There is a lot of baggage in your reply.

The way we deal with it is make sure the game is fun for everyone. Stats are over rated in my games. The story revolves around the PC no matter what their stats are. If the PCs are a bit weaker due to anything mechanical then the encounters we run are easier. I do not punish players for having bad character ability scores. If the player really doesn't want the character then they get a new character but first I try to work with them together we make it work.

If your group is doing anything else then I question why on Earth you would play with them.

So how do you deal with the character with a 4 Wisdom constantly failing "Save or Suck for the rest of this encounter" saves and not being REALLY pissed off that it keeps happening? Because to ensure that player 'has fun' you'd have to either scrap your campaign setting of anything requiring a Wisdom Save, or have every single one of those creatures only target members of the party with higher Wisdom, or not do any of those and just say "Chin up champ, you get to *try* again next round! Fun, right?"

Ability scores FREAKING MATTER, especially the ones related to saves, and Wisdom is the queen mother of "if this score is too low, you will be spending a lot of game sessions playing on your phone instead of playing D&D because your character is rendered helpless."

Crothian · Nov 3, 2014

epochrpg said:
So how do you deal with the character with a 4 Wisdom constantly failing "Save or Suck for the rest of this encounter" saves and not being REALLY pissed off that it keeps happening?

If the player choose to have a character with a 4 wisdom and is not mad about it then there is no problem. If the player is frustrated by the 4 wisdom and failing saves then we talk about what the player wants to do out of game. There are a lot of options and scrapping the campaign setting is never one of them. Some players don't mind having characters with weakness and they don't mind failing rolls. Part of our fun is not just having our characters succeed but watching and making sure the other people at the table are having fun. It does not sound like you are one of them though. In that case the player certainly has the option of coming in as a new character.

Ability scores FREAKING MATTER, especially the ones related to saves, and Wisdom is the queen mother of "if this score is too low, you will be spending a lot of game sessions playing on your phone instead of playing D&D because your character is rendered helpless."

They don't matter as much as the decisions that happen out side of combat. Before the PCs get into a combat situation they have made all kinds of choices that include research, scouting, and just avoiding the fight. If a player for any reason is spending time playing on their phone I call them on it. It's rude to the table to do that and people who would prefer to play on their phone don't need to be at the D&D table.

sunrisekid · Nov 3, 2014

Worked the details with my players, and we've agreed on the following:

- roll 3d6 in order, re-rolling 1s
- change one stat to 14
- apply racial modifiers

That is a good enough compromise for me.

BASHMAN · Nov 4, 2014

Crothian said:
If the player choose to have a character with a 4 wisdom and is not mad about it then there is no problem. If the player is frustrated by the 4 wisdom and failing saves then we talk about what the player wants to do out of game. There are a lot of options and scrapping the campaign setting is never one of them. Some players don't mind having characters with weakness and they don't mind failing rolls. Part of our fun is not just having our characters succeed but watching and making sure the other people at the table are having fun. It does not sound like you are one of them though. In that case the player certainly has the option of coming in as a new character.

They don't matter as much as the decisions that happen out side of combat. Before the PCs get into a combat situation they have made all kinds of choices that include research, scouting, and just avoiding the fight. If a player for any reason is spending time playing on their phone I call them on it. It's rude to the table to do that and people who would prefer to play on their phone don't need to be at the D&D table.

You mentioned options for dealing with a 4 wisdom and the presence of "Save or Suck" being a major impairment for such a character. What are they, specifically, other than scrapping the character?

You also mention ability scores don't matter much in the grand scheme. If that is the case, why not let the player decide what stats they want to have? After all, if it doesn't matter all that much, why not let them decide for themselves? Then nobody is stuck with a score they didn't tacitly accept.

The issue of playing on the phone was mentioned because it would not be reasonable to expect someone whose character is helpless and unconscious and thus, incapable of affecting the game to be as engaged as those who get to actually play. And there are a myriad of effects, especially requiring a Wisdom save, that would render a character into "forced spectator mode".

Crothian · Nov 4, 2014

epochrpg said:
You mentioned options for dealing with a 4 wisdom and the presence of "Save or Suck" being a major impairment for such a character. What are they, specifically, other than scrapping the character?

Strategy, quest to improve the wisdom, be creative....

Different answers depend on the table and the players there. I will say that I've never seen a player complain because of having low attributes or failing a save for a save or suck or even save of die.

You also mention ability scores don't matter much in the grand scheme. If that is the case, why not let the player decide what stats they want to have? After all, if it doesn't matter all that much, why not let them decide for themselves? Then nobody is stuck with a score they didn't tacitly accept.

That's funny. If you search the forums you'll find that I've been doing exactly that for years. It started in the late days of 3e but I did decide to let the players create the exact character they waned by choosing their character's attributes. But this thread isn't about that it is about someone else's method of character creation.

The issue of playing on the phone was mentioned because it would not be reasonable to expect someone whose character is helpless and unconscious and thus, incapable of affecting the game to be as engaged as those who get to actually play. And there are a myriad of effects, especially requiring a Wisdom save, that would render a character into "forced spectator mode".

I think it is very reasonable for people to pay attention even if their character is unconscious or not in the scene or its just not their turn to go. To do otherwise shows disrespect to the people at the table. I only game with friends and I hold them to high standards because they have earned it.

BASHMAN · Nov 4, 2014

Crothian said:
Strategy, quest to improve the wisdom, be creative....

Please go on. I'd like details/examples on each of these.

77IM · Nov 4, 2014

OK I had another idea. I like how simple this one is.

1. Roll 3d6 six times, assign to abilities in the order they are rolled.
2. Roll (3d6, take the middle die)+12 twice to generate two more scores.
3. You may replace any two ability scores with the two you generated if you wish.

This is also a nice hybrid option that allows you to roll first or pick a class first.

Paraxis · Nov 4, 2014

Whats the point of all these rerolls, roll and add +12, change the order, replace stats, make one a 14, roll multiple sets and pick?

If you are jumping through all those hoops to get a playable character, just give them an array or a point buy and let them make the character they want and is playable.

I get the old school roll one set in order, I don't like it but I understand it, all this other stuff seems like those old PC games where you could just reroll your ability scores until you got the ones you liked, might as well just let people have all 18's.

clearstream · Nov 4, 2014

sunrisekid said:
Worked the details with my players, and we've agreed on the following:

- roll 3d6 in order, re-rolling 1s
- change one stat to 14
- apply racial modifiers

That is a good enough compromise for me.

I dislike the 'change one stat to 14' part because I could have all 17s and one 6, and that 6 becomes a 14. Or I could have all 6s, and one of those becomes a 14. It seems ill-balanced. Using Troll I've tried a few methods and one that is generating quite acceptable characters is to simply roll two straight stat arrays and take the one you like. For instance I get 7, 17, 8, 6, 11, 7 and 8, 9, 6, 9, 13, 11. But that still fails the 'we don't want to be straitjacketed in to a class' test. Which I suspect is most simply solved with 'swap one roll onto a class stat'. So to run through it -

Step 1 - roll 3d6 six times in order, twice (e.g. 7, 17, 8, 6, 11, 7 and 8, 9, 6, 9, 13, 11)
Step 2 - swap one roll onto a class stat (choosing Sorceror I get 7, 7, 8, 6, 11, 17)

Then I can choose race, say Human, ending with 8, 8, 9, 7, 12, 18. For -1, -1, -1, -2, +1, +4. An interesting character. As an aside, this method makes the human +1 across the board look much better. Had I chosen Drow I could have 7, 9, 8, 6, 11, 18, for -2, -1, -1, -2, +0, +4. A net of -2 vs the human version's net +0. These characters have definite flaws, but I feel like that makes them flavourful. And I think it makes it more room for each player to shine. Since they will have to cover for one another's weaknesses.

Crothian · Nov 4, 2014

epochrpg said:
Please go on. I'd like details/examples on each of these.

No, I'm done with this back and forth that is not going anywhere.

D&D 5E Alternate ability generation rule

BASHMAN

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Crothian

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sunrisekid

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BASHMAN

Basic Action Games

Crothian

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BASHMAN

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77IM

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Paraxis

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clearstream

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Crothian

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