D&D (2024) Should Saving Throw DCs just be Ability Scores?

[aiouh]

What if your Saving Throw DCs were just your associated Ability Score instead of 8 + Proficiency mod+ Ability Mod?

Then the numbers would be different to what the design intended. Saving throws are something you calculate once each time your character levels up or gains a bonus, which is not something that happens often enough to where it warrants an easier calculation method.

 

[Minigiant]

Then the numbers would be different to what the design intended. Saving throws are something you calculate once each time your character levels up or gains a bonus, which is not something that happens often enough to where it warrants an easier calculation method.

The argument is that with the way 2024 is intended, you are supposed to have all the DCs for each Ability score to adjudicate improvised action. 2024 simplifies actions to attack roll or saving throw

But people only ever calculate their spell DCs and there's no space for other DCs.

So player actually decides to do something different for a DM improvises in action, they either have to calculate a new number on the spot from a formula or they make up nonsense numbers out of thin air.

This is, IMO, one of the reasons why Martial characters don't improvise as much as the game and general advice they should be able to because there's no real concrete way to visualize the payoff in doing so nor gauge your level of success.

 

[Horwath]

Where's the Shovel DC?

STR

Where's the Grapple Escape DC?

STR

Where's the Spell DC if I give him a warlock cantrip from a hag?

CHA

Where's the DC to dodge if he does a moonsault?

STR ,maybe DEX

If Ability Scores are DCs, then those are printed as well.

Moonsault? Vadersault? Samoan Splash?
Constitution due to fattiness.
DC is Constitution score.
DC 16.

View attachment 398034

 

[Minigiant]

STR

STR

CHA

STR ,maybe DEX

The point is currently they are neither on the stat block nor char sheet.

My houserule would make the ability score the DC.

 

[aiouh]

I think we need to delineate two things

How Saving Throw DCs are calculated

What kind of play you wanna foster in your game, make certain actions more attractive

In your case, you houseruled the calculation method on how Saving Throw DCs are calculated, to guide players more towards improvisational play, because RAI/RAW you are supposed to use Saving Throw DCs.

My issue with this is that Saving Throw DC calculations factor in a lot of other systems, so you changing how this is calculated changes how the game is played in a myriad of other ways. If your goal is to make improvisational action easier to gauge then just keep your houserule in those confines.

So instead of changing an entire dc calculation system, my suggestion is to just add another houserule

"When doing improvisational action, Ability score is DC"

 

[Willie the Duck]

That's why I suggested more saving throw proficiencies and legendary resistance.

Those are simple things to put on a sheet.

As for martial/caster, ability score DCs allows for easier martial adjudication.

This really feels like a change for change sake kind of proposal. It messes with monster DC's as well, and makes everything too stat dependent with no skill component.

I'm tending to agree with Jefe. I guess it's stated in the OP that the purpose is to find a use for attribute proper (as opposed to attribute mod), so it isn't just how it feels, it's a stated goal.

I think you are right, we can make simple changes and put them on a sheet. However, at the end of the day I think we'll be making a lot of simple changes to address the consequences of the change. And, other than the purely aesthetic value of finding a use for a game number, I don't see what it accomplishes. The part of the OP about 'no longer have to calculate DCs on the fly or just make up random numbers for DCs' is true, but not specific to this implementation (the same could be accomplished with the 8+prof+ability mod model as well).

I think it's an interesting idea for a theoretical alternate D&D-like game. But for the existing game, it seems like a lot of little modifications without a specific payoff.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm tending to agree with Jefe. I guess it's stated in the OP that the purpose is to find a use for attribute proper (as opposed to attribute mod), so it isn't just how it feels, it's a stated goal.

I think you are right, we can make simple changes and put them on a sheet. However, at the end of the day I think we'll be making a lot of simple changes to address the consequences of the change. And, other than the purely aesthetic value of finding a use for a game number, I don't see what it accomplishes. The part of the OP about 'no longer have to calculate DCs on the fly or just make up random numbers for DCs' is true, but not specific to this implementation (the same could be accomplished with the 8+prof+ability mod model as well).

I think it's an interesting idea for a theoretical alternate D&D-like game. But for the existing game, it seems like a lot of little modifications without a specific payoff.

That would make sense...

If the 5e saving throw system wasn't already kinda messed up and requiring adjustment or playing favorite at base.

PC and NPC saving throw bonuses for nonproficient saves are already WAY TOO LOW.

You already want to adjust saving throws. PC s only get proficiency in one good saving through and one week saving throw leaving for options right for targeting. And monsters rarely even get any saving throw bonus. So in reality you kind of need to adjust the same and throw system to if you claim that these Score DCs are too high as it is.

If you say Scores are too high for DCs, you are likely acknowledging the base DCs are too high already.

 

[Aldarc]

What if instead of save DCs, they were non-AC defenses? Replace anything that would normally force a save with a given ability with an attack targeting that ability score. So, for example, Charm Person would be a spellcasting attack against the target’s Wisdom score instead of their AC.

This is one of the babies that WotC (IMHO) mistakenly threw out alongside the 4e bath water.

 

[Spellslinging Sellsword]

Could just eliminate attributes all together, give proficiency bonus x2 for class saves/skills/rolls and standard proficiency for other rolls. That gives you +2-6 for non-proficient and +4-12 for proficient.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

You'd have to do extensive rewrites to make this work.