D&D 5E Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?

JediSoth

Voice Over Artist & Author
Epic
Defending Greenest is fine. The railroad tracks become blatantly obvious when the PCs have to leave Greenest.

Either my group doesn't mind or I've done a good job of making them feel like a choice. They could have refused to go to the raider camp. They could have refused to go back to the camp after freeing Leosin. They chose not to.

Granted, had they done either of those things, they'd no longer be playing the adventure as written and I'd have to do a whole lot of off-the-cuff improve, but at no point did I say "Hey, you MUST go here next or we're not playing." They had a choice to break off from the path given to them through the clues and NPC interactions; I don't think the railroad is quite as egregious as written as some posters here are implying.
 

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Either my group doesn't mind or I've done a good job of making them feel like a choice. They could have refused to go to the raider camp. They could have refused to go back to the camp after freeing Leosin. They chose not to.

Ah, I still count that as around Greenest. It's when they get back after the camp the second time continuing is a lot more problematic.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Ah, I still count that as around Greenest. It's when they get back after the camp the second time continuing is a lot more problematic.


Well, the choice is still there; the adventure includes the options to majorly up the incentives to follow the bread crumbs; but it's an AP, whaddya gonna do?
 

Derren

Hero
Granted, had they done either of those things, they'd no longer be playing the adventure as written and I'd have to do a whole lot of off-the-cuff improve, but at no point did I say "Hey, you MUST go here next or we're not playing." They had a choice to break off from the path given to them through the clues and NPC interactions; I don't think the railroad is quite as egregious as written as some posters here are implying.

You don't have to say it, but most players are very aware of that fact that if they don't do what NPCs tell them to they go off the adventure.
 

Hussar

Legend
You don't have to say it, but most players are very aware of that fact that if they don't do what NPCs tell them to they go off the adventure.

But, that's true of virtually every module ever written.

If you don't go to the Caves of Chaos, Keep on the Borderland is a pretty short adventure. If you don't go to the moathouse, Village of Hommlet won't last very long. If you refuse to investigate the cultists and head out of Orlane, Cult of the Reptile God isn't going to help you very much. If you choose to ally with the Hill Giant King, G1 has no advice for you. On and on and on. Virtually every module ever written comes with presumptions that the players are actually going to engage with the adventure.

I'd argue that the vast majority of home brew adventures work the same way as well.

Seems a pretty minor complaint when you have a bread crumb trail to follow in a module. Guess what? You're playing a module - that's almost always going to include bread crumb trails.
 

Wolfskin

Explorer
Just chiming in to say that IME Hoard runs far better than I expected after reading the book- some "WTF this doesn´t make any sense" moments (such as Cyanwrath´s duel with a 1st level PC) turned out to be actually pretty good from the players´ pespective in the end.
 

Remathilis

Legend
But, that's true of virtually every module ever written.

If you don't go to the Caves of Chaos, Keep on the Borderland is a pretty short adventure. If you don't go to the moathouse, Village of Hommlet won't last very long. If you refuse to investigate the cultists and head out of Orlane, Cult of the Reptile God isn't going to help you very much. If you choose to ally with the Hill Giant King, G1 has no advice for you. On and on and on. Virtually every module ever written comes with presumptions that the players are actually going to engage with the adventure.

I'd argue that the vast majority of home brew adventures work the same way as well.

Seems a pretty minor complaint when you have a bread crumb trail to follow in a module. Guess what? You're playing a module - that's almost always going to include bread crumb trails.

Any adventure can be sabotaged by a group bound and determined not to go on it.

Of course, most players I know also know that the DM has to invest time and/or money into these things and if they want a game to happen, they follow the breadcrumbs. A minor loss in self-determination sure beats the DM calling game 4 hours early because the group opted to head to Waterdeep and open a brothel rather than investigate the cult...
 

delericho

Legend
But, that's true of virtually every module ever written.

If you don't go to... {snip examples}. Virtually every module ever written comes with presumptions that the players are actually going to engage with the adventure.

Yep. Especially in an Adventure Path it's not unreasonable that there be a path the party is expected to follow!

What an adventure should do, though, is try to support likely PC actions within the context of that path - what if the PCs elect not to enter Greenest? What if the PCs elect to wipe out the bandit camp rather than infiltrating it? What if they play hardball on the negotiations with those two NPCs? And so on.

And, actually, this is an area where HotDQ succeeds where actually a great many published adventures (even 'good' adventures) don't - the adventure does indeed answer the questions above.

(It's worth noting that if an adventure doesn't do this, but only covers the single most likely response, it's entirely possible that many groups will never experience a problem - if it never occurs to them to "jump the tracks", then what does it matter if doing so causes a crash? However, I would argue that that is still a weakness in the module, because of all those other groups who do hit problems. But that's somewhat off-topic, as HotDQ actually doesn't have that problem, except insofar as an Adventure Path requires.)

I'd argue that the vast majority of home brew adventures work the same way as well.

I'm not sure this is the same. The difference is that the DM probably knows his specific group in a way professional designers don't (and can't). As a consequence, he can probably predict a fair amount of what they'll do, so maybe doesn't need to prepare as many of the paths.
 


professorDM

First Post
If you're stupid enough to have your 1st level character try to fight a dragon, then you deserve to die. You don't get to blame the game designers or the DM. You get to learn your lesson and try again.

Sure, it's up to the DM to let new players to the game know that such a creature is FAR too much of a threat to challenge, but that is handled easily enough. I can't imagine a DM worth anything taking someone new to RPGs and D&D and not holding said new player's hand a little (or encouraging other, more experienced players at the table to help the newer one out) by warning him or her of the impossibility of such a fight. ("The dragon is frightening and massive," the DM might offer. "You've never seen anything like it in your life. You know that there's no way that someone as inexperienced as yourself you could hope to defeat such a being.")

At a certain point, the blame falls squarely on the moronic PC who thinks him- or herself invincible. And if the moronic player wants to create a character whose "background" designates that he or she "must" fight the dragon, then that moronic player has created a suicidal character and shouldn't be surprised when that character jumps off a cliff.

These aren't new players to D&D complaining about encountering a dragon, I'm guessing----these are older players, perhaps spoiled players, players set in their ways, who expect the game to be designed with the safety guards and bumper rails they're used to.

Certainly DMs have some responsibility to ensure the game is fun and playable for folks, but if players are dumb enough to commit seppuku, there's little to be done about it. Take it as a lesson in how to play the game----the same as you did the first time you played Super Mario and threw yourself into a pit.
 

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