D&D 5E Deconstructing 5e: Typical Wealth by Level
Kinematics
Hero
So now that I did all that work, I find that I don't like the results.
It assumes that an encounter with a total XP that could generate a CR opponent of a higher tier must necessarily be a one-mob encounter. The instant you make it two mobs, the XP per mob drops back down to the current advancement tier. When considering several enemies, there's also the XP multiplier that boosts each mob's effective XP.
For example, suppose we have a level 4 party, on their last big fight before going to level 5. Let's also say we're always going to keep these big fights at 'hard' level, not 'deadly', as the DMG numbers seem mostly tuned for hard fights to be the loot hoard generators.
XP per player is at least 375, but less than 500, for total party XP of 1500 to 2000. To get a CR5 fight, you can use 1800 XP on a single mob.
If there's multiple mobs, you base the loot table on the highest CR creature. With 2 mobs, you could have a CR4+CR1, or a CR3+CR2. Or progressively larger groups with smaller CR numbers. But fundamentally, you cannot have a CR5 with more than one mob. That also implies that getting tier 2 loot while the party is tier 1 is quite low. Single-mob fights tend to be very do-or-die. If you can counter the primary threat, they're fairly easy to take down. If you can't, you die.
So, let's revise tier 1 to not get any tier 2 loot.
Next, tier 2.
Level 8: 5600-8400 XP
Level 9: 6400-9600 XP
Level 10: 7600-11200 XP
CR9: 5000 XP
CR10: 5900 XP
CR11: 7200 XP
CR12: 8400 XP
Again, a single mob fits within the XP range, but...
2 mobs:
CR9: 7500 XP
CR10: 8850 XP
CR11: 10800 XP
CR12: 12600 XP
3-6 mobs:
CR9: 10000 XP
CR10: 11800 XP
CR11: 14400 XP
CR12: 16800 XP
Two mobs with a CR11 lead would fit at level 10 (though even then, the second mob would cap at CR1), but three or more mobs prevents anything higher than CR9 from being used as a lead.
So it's possible that you might have one tier 3 encounter while at tier 2, but it's pretty unlikely to get more than that.
Next, tier 3.
Level 14: 15200-22800 XP
Level 15: 17200-25600 XP
Level 16: 19200-28800 XP
1 mob:
CR15: 13000 XP
CR16: 15000 XP
CR17: 18000 XP
2 mobs:
CR15: 19500 XP
CR16: 22500 XP
CR17: 27000 XP
3-6 mobs:
CR15: 26000 XP
CR16: 30000 XP
CR17: 36000 XP
You can't have 3+ mobs with CR17 lead. You can barely fit in 2 mobs with a CR17 lead, but the second mob would be near-worthless at this level. You could do 1 mob with CR17-18.
Once again, I will allow that you might have one above-tier treasure hoard at level 16, but that's about it.
So, revised graphs:
And one comparing 5E with the estimated Pathfinder wealth levels, as provided by CapnZapp:
And this is the spreadsheet number distribution:
This seems much more workable in terms of having an appropriate amount of wealth at any given level within a tier, though the last level may get you a running start towards the next tier.
It assumes that an encounter with a total XP that could generate a CR opponent of a higher tier must necessarily be a one-mob encounter. The instant you make it two mobs, the XP per mob drops back down to the current advancement tier. When considering several enemies, there's also the XP multiplier that boosts each mob's effective XP.
For example, suppose we have a level 4 party, on their last big fight before going to level 5. Let's also say we're always going to keep these big fights at 'hard' level, not 'deadly', as the DMG numbers seem mostly tuned for hard fights to be the loot hoard generators.
XP per player is at least 375, but less than 500, for total party XP of 1500 to 2000. To get a CR5 fight, you can use 1800 XP on a single mob.
If there's multiple mobs, you base the loot table on the highest CR creature. With 2 mobs, you could have a CR4+CR1, or a CR3+CR2. Or progressively larger groups with smaller CR numbers. But fundamentally, you cannot have a CR5 with more than one mob. That also implies that getting tier 2 loot while the party is tier 1 is quite low. Single-mob fights tend to be very do-or-die. If you can counter the primary threat, they're fairly easy to take down. If you can't, you die.
So, let's revise tier 1 to not get any tier 2 loot.
Next, tier 2.
Level 8: 5600-8400 XP
Level 9: 6400-9600 XP
Level 10: 7600-11200 XP
CR9: 5000 XP
CR10: 5900 XP
CR11: 7200 XP
CR12: 8400 XP
Again, a single mob fits within the XP range, but...
2 mobs:
CR9: 7500 XP
CR10: 8850 XP
CR11: 10800 XP
CR12: 12600 XP
3-6 mobs:
CR9: 10000 XP
CR10: 11800 XP
CR11: 14400 XP
CR12: 16800 XP
Two mobs with a CR11 lead would fit at level 10 (though even then, the second mob would cap at CR1), but three or more mobs prevents anything higher than CR9 from being used as a lead.
So it's possible that you might have one tier 3 encounter while at tier 2, but it's pretty unlikely to get more than that.
Next, tier 3.
Level 14: 15200-22800 XP
Level 15: 17200-25600 XP
Level 16: 19200-28800 XP
1 mob:
CR15: 13000 XP
CR16: 15000 XP
CR17: 18000 XP
2 mobs:
CR15: 19500 XP
CR16: 22500 XP
CR17: 27000 XP
3-6 mobs:
CR15: 26000 XP
CR16: 30000 XP
CR17: 36000 XP
You can't have 3+ mobs with CR17 lead. You can barely fit in 2 mobs with a CR17 lead, but the second mob would be near-worthless at this level. You could do 1 mob with CR17-18.
Once again, I will allow that you might have one above-tier treasure hoard at level 16, but that's about it.
So, revised graphs:
And one comparing 5E with the estimated Pathfinder wealth levels, as provided by CapnZapp:
And this is the spreadsheet number distribution:
This seems much more workable in terms of having an appropriate amount of wealth at any given level within a tier, though the last level may get you a running start towards the next tier.
CapnZapp
Legend
Concerning that you are now assuming that any encounter more challenging than hard/deadly is unacceptably difficult, which leads you to conclude any higher-tier fight must necessarily be against a solo monster.
Let me just state for the record that my experience is that my characters handle double-deadly or even harder fights just fine, so in practice the game can result in the first, smoother, curve just fine.
That said, I understand you want to look at this from a formal point of view.
Let me just state for the record that my experience is that my characters handle double-deadly or even harder fights just fine, so in practice the game can result in the first, smoother, curve just fine.
That said, I understand you want to look at this from a formal point of view.
CapnZapp
Legend
As a final observation, there is one alternate curve available that is just as official and 5e-centric.
You'll find it on page 15 of your very own copy of the Players Handbook ☺
Yes, I'm talking about the Character Advancement table and substituting xp with gp!
On mobile right now and so I can't plot a graph but hopefully it will look smooth and nice.
And it ends up at a somewhat less-absurd 355,000 gp at 20th level instead of the near million in Pathfinder and Typical/Kinematics curves.
Blog of Holding tells you how to roughly get to this curve using the DMG guidelines: double the monetary wealth of any hoard from a monster in the top half of its tier, and ignore tier IV monetary awards completely.
Food for thoughts.
And again, thank you Kinematics (and the original poster)!
You'll find it on page 15 of your very own copy of the Players Handbook ☺
Yes, I'm talking about the Character Advancement table and substituting xp with gp!
On mobile right now and so I can't plot a graph but hopefully it will look smooth and nice.
And it ends up at a somewhat less-absurd 355,000 gp at 20th level instead of the near million in Pathfinder and Typical/Kinematics curves.
Blog of Holding tells you how to roughly get to this curve using the DMG guidelines: double the monetary wealth of any hoard from a monster in the top half of its tier, and ignore tier IV monetary awards completely.
Food for thoughts.
And again, thank you Kinematics (and the original poster)!
Kinematics
Hero
It looks like they wanted to cut the wealth in tier 3 (levels 9-16) in half, but still end up with the same total wealth at 20th level, so accelerated a lot in tier 4. It makes tier 3 more manageable compared to tier 2 than the higher wealth increase afforded to Pathfinder.
Largely from a formal point of view, yes. The more I work through the numbers and ratios, the more it's clear that the provided numbers are balanced on the assumption of hard fights as the capstone of a story arc (a sequence of 3-5 easy, 2 medium, and 1 hard/deadly encounters), most of the time.
At the same time, my own experiences also indicate that deadly+ encounters aren't as deadly as the numbers suggest. But I'm not always sure they're being applied properly, either; I've had encounters that 'should' have been relatively easy, but one or two unexpected tricks turned them into something much tougher. It makes using the CR system in a vacuum very unreliable.
But the real problem is that the smoother curve just goes way too high, too fast, to be useful as a metric for pricing or buying items. That to me implies that it's not a good scaling rate.
CapnZapp
Legend
Yep.Heh. Just to poke the bear.
Since 5e wealth by level mirrors Pathfinder pretty closely, doesn't that mean you could use the Pathfinder prices for magic items without too much trouble?
Just make sure the bear likes lots of toys...
Hussar
Legend
Well, really, at the end of the day, what do we want character wealth to mean? Is it simply "points" like in an old video game where you just rack up the high score even though it really doesn't mean anything? Or, should character wealth be tied to something? 5e, by and large, has left that up to the DM. Depending on the table, money can be very important, or, it can just be a number on the character sheet.
I certainly don't want to go back to the 3e style where wealth is tied to character power. To me, it makes the game very formulaic. And, IME, tends to wind up with everyone buying the same six or eight magic items over and over again because those are the most "effective" for the cost.
But, seeing as we've gone back to the AD&D style of money, where the GP total on your character sheet really doesn't matter, wouldn't a simpler answer just be to stop giving out so much cash? I mean, really, why does a wyvern, as a totally random example, have a bunch of GP? Wouldn't it make more sense that 99% of the critters you fight simply don't have any actual cash on them? That's the way Warhammer worked, as I recall.
I certainly don't want to go back to the 3e style where wealth is tied to character power. To me, it makes the game very formulaic. And, IME, tends to wind up with everyone buying the same six or eight magic items over and over again because those are the most "effective" for the cost.
But, seeing as we've gone back to the AD&D style of money, where the GP total on your character sheet really doesn't matter, wouldn't a simpler answer just be to stop giving out so much cash? I mean, really, why does a wyvern, as a totally random example, have a bunch of GP? Wouldn't it make more sense that 99% of the critters you fight simply don't have any actual cash on them? That's the way Warhammer worked, as I recall.
