D&D 5E Encounter Busting Events

Arcadian Games · Aug 15, 2015

Hi folks,

I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding skills and spells that can wreck a decent encounter - those which take the challenge away. In particular, but not limited to, Hold Person and the Evokers spell sculpting abilities. While I was developing and play testing 'The City Under the Mountain' it became apparent that with a bit of luck, good or bad, depending on your perspective - a detailed and important encounter could be over in a flash - negating the challenge and fun.

For example, many encounters can feature a human opponent - often these are a good challenge for the players due to their abilities/AC etc. However, all that was needed was a simple 2nd level Hold Person and a couple of poor saving rolls (often needing 11 or 12 on a d20) by the monster and bash, bash bash - and it was all over. This seems especially possible due to the likelihood of multiple attacks, action surges and haste spells and the like.

Similarly, play testing an Evoker brought up the dangers of spell sculpting. I found that it wasn't beyond the wit of man to engage any enemy in melee whilst the Evoker blasts in one, two or even three Fireballs from a safe distance - effectively causing the unfortunate victim encounter crushing damage. All this while their party colleagues are perfectly safe. These and similar events seemed to result in rapid combat closes and a finely crafted encounter was over.

I was wondering whether any one has thoughts on these matters - are they over powerful or just part of the game? Do they reward players who practice them or make it all too easy?

Best wishes,

Mike

Dausuul · Aug 15, 2015

In general, it's expected that 5E parties will occasionally "wreck" encounters in this way. The expectation is that there will be 6-8 encounters per day, with two short rests; thus, the party will typically have the resources to "win button" a couple of them but not all of them.

This is fine for rank and file encounters, but it obviously poses a problem where boss fights are concerned. With a boss fight, you want the encounter to be epic and memorable. I would say that when you're planning a boss fight, you need to make sure that a) the boss has enough hit points to withstand a couple rounds of being pounded on by the whole party, and b) the boss has a broad-based answer to save-or-lose effects. This was the idea behind legendary creatures.

If you have an encounter you need to keep from being busted, you can either make the boss legendary, or find some similar solution. Another idea would be to have a boss that sends out a proxy to absorb the party's resources before emerging to join the fight. (You can only do that so often before the players get wise, however.)

Crothian · Aug 15, 2015

First, get the idea of this wrecking am encounter out of your head. Sometimes encounters turn out easier for the PCs and that's a good thing. As DM you should be rooting for the PCs they are what the campaign is all about, It doesn't mean all the encounters need to be easy but its okay that some are.

Mistwell · Aug 15, 2015

Arcadian Games said:
... negating the challenge and fun...These and similar events seemed to result in rapid combat closes and a finely crafted encounter was over.

I was wondering whether any one has thoughts on these matters - are they over powerful or just part of the game? Do they reward players who practice them or make it all too easy?

It doesn't negate the fun. Combat in 5e is much faster than 3e or 4e combat (in general), and this can be a lot of fun. It's part of this version of the game I think. I do think it makes solo monsters a bit more complicated to run - it's easier to run a challenge with multiple foes, even if it's a big bad and their minor minions.

Also, this tactic has it's drawbacks and have built-in balances. Saving throw DCs are hard to increase, so the spellcaster can entirely waste their spell on a successful save with a spell like Hold Person; and even on a failed on, it's a concentration spell so you can only do it once, and it can be broken by the caster taking damage. And the fireballs, it can be done on rare occasion - but then the spellcaster expended resources, and the next encounter within minutes of the last one due to the sound of a bomb going off (fireball - three times) will prevent a short rest (which takes an hour) and soon the spellcaster is reduced to cantrips.

Also in terms of solo monsters, you might want to check out the legendary creatures and lairs stuff in the monster manual. Legendary creatures can shrug off some saving-throw effects, and their lairs can get an action as well to disrupt a spellcaster. It helps address some of these issues, and plays quite well (and fun) too.

I'm A Banana · Aug 15, 2015

I'll echo some of the other sentiment here - the ability to nerf a challenge like this is part of what a party is expected to be able to do.

Arcadian Games said:
I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding skills and spells that can wreck a decent encounter - those which take the challenge away.

There's a few that take the challenge largely away from the encounter, but 5e isn't an encounter-based game. Over the course of 6-8 encounters, an ability that zots a single encounter is just one piece of the pie.

For example, many encounters can feature a human opponent - often these are a good challenge for the players due to their abilities/AC etc. However, all that was needed was a simple 2nd level Hold Person and a couple of poor saving rolls (often needing 11 or 12 on a d20) by the monster and bash, bash bash - and it was all over. This seems especially possible due to the likelihood of multiple attacks, action surges and haste spells and the like.

If your encounter relies on one enemy against a party of PC's, make it legendary. Give it legendary resistance, legendary actions, possibly lair actions. Otherwise, any one enemy against a group of PC's is going to get pwned quick. Without the legendary features, any solitary enemy is going down without much of a challenge, hold person or no.

Similarly, play testing an Evoker brought up the dangers of spell sculpting. I found that it wasn't beyond the wit of man to engage any enemy in melee whilst the Evoker blasts in one, two or even three Fireballs from a safe distance - effectively causing the unfortunate victim encounter crushing damage. All this while their party colleagues are perfectly safe. These and similar events seemed to result in rapid combat closes and a finely crafted encounter was over.

Varied enemy attacks and terrain play the biggest part in mitigating that. A tank can hold a front-line pretty OK (the sentinel feat is HUUUUUUUUUUGE), so use ranged attacks to snipe the squishies, and let monsters lure folks forward into open spaces that allow for flanking and the like.

I was wondering whether any one has thoughts on these matters - are they over powerful or just part of the game? Do they reward players who practice them or make it all too easy?

They're generally a good thing - nuking a fight from orbit is fine. A rogue with Stealth and a good roll can do it, too, just maybe less flashily.

But make sure you're not relying on individual points of failure to make your party feel challenged. Be diverse. You can't fireball every combat, you can't hold person every villain, there should be more than one enemy on the field of battle, there shouldn't be a rest after every fight.

Arcadian Games · Aug 16, 2015

Yes - some interesting thoughts and ideas.

I also found this thread from earlier which is very interesting: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?393085-Legendary-monsters-are-not-solo-monsters

Food for thought indeed. Thanks for your responses and advice,guys - much appreciated.

Mike

ExploderWizard · Aug 16, 2015

Arcadian Games said:
Hi folks,

I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding skills and spells that can wreck a decent encounter - those which take the challenge away. In particular, but not limited to, Hold Person and the Evokers spell sculpting abilities. While I was developing and play testing 'The City Under the Mountain' it became apparent that with a bit of luck, good or bad, depending on your perspective - a detailed and important encounter could be over in a flash - negating the challenge and fun.

For example, many encounters can feature a human opponent - often these are a good challenge for the players due to their abilities/AC etc. However, all that was needed was a simple 2nd level Hold Person and a couple of poor saving rolls (often needing 11 or 12 on a d20) by the monster and bash, bash bash - and it was all over. This seems especially possible due to the likelihood of multiple attacks, action surges and haste spells and the like.

Similarly, play testing an Evoker brought up the dangers of spell sculpting. I found that it wasn't beyond the wit of man to engage any enemy in melee whilst the Evoker blasts in one, two or even three Fireballs from a safe distance - effectively causing the unfortunate victim encounter crushing damage. All this while their party colleagues are perfectly safe. These and similar events seemed to result in rapid combat closes and a finely crafted encounter was over.

I was wondering whether any one has thoughts on these matters - are they over powerful or just part of the game? Do they reward players who practice them or make it all too easy?

Best wishes,

Mike

Since these examples all require the expenditure of party resources, I don't see a problem. Spells should have a chance to be very effective and turn a hard encounter into an easier one. That is one thing magic is good for right?

Also remember that such resources are common and enemies may have them as well. Evil priests with hold person spells can be big trouble for a party as can a skilled evoker opponent.

Also remember that players may have no idea how tough the rest of their day may get, and if they are unloading so many resources on a typical encounter, they could be hard pressed to even escape a tougher one later if they have largely spent their spell slots making other encounters easy.

D&D 5E Encounter Busting Events

Arcadian Games

First Post

Dausuul

Legend

Crothian

First Post

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich

Arcadian Games

First Post

ExploderWizard

Hero

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