Creating Magic Items

So I realize that the full rules for OLD aren't ready yet but we got an interesting question during a game that I really couldn't answer. Basically, there is a mage in the group who can use multiple magic types (as a result of using the purchasing system and a lot of grinding on his part) and he wanted to create magic items using creation magic, various magic enhancements, and most importantly the permanence enhancement. Up to this point, everything was fine as he had all the necessary exploits for this. The question occurred when he argued that since the item was now permanent then the magically effect (in this case +2 SPEED) should be permanent as well.

Normally, an item charged with a spell would only gain the spells effect for a duration and a magic item works similarly since it only exists for a duration without the permanence enhancement. So the question is, is he essentially correct about how it works and can the same principle be applied to "enchanting" magic items by charging them with a spell that includes the permanence enhancement (which is something he asked about as well).

Note: The GM is willing to go either way on this but would like to keep within the rules instead of on a case-by-case basis if possible. His reasoning is that creating magic items and "enchanting" like this is really cool but potentially too powerful later on. Based on that he doesn't want to say yes early on and then later end up saying no once its become accepted.

Technically (if I understand the question correctly), he's correct. Although it would cost over 44,100gc just for the permanency (not counting any actual spell effects) so it's a heck of an expensive thing to do. Of course, the effect is only permanent while he's got the item. In practical terms, a permanent effect isn't actually that much more useful than a 3 x per day effect; most of the time it isn't really benefiting the user in any practical sense. There are much more efficient uses of his money and time!

(Note that there's only a brief note on the subject in Fantasy Equipment, but in Elements of Magic there's a little more detail, including the time it takes to enchant an item and what it takes out of the caster. The section in Fantasy Equipment is more for designing existing items than for enchanting stuff in-game).

Morrus said:

Technically (if I understand the question correctly), he's correct. Although it would cost over 44,100gc just for the permanency (not counting any actual spell effects) so it's a heck of an expensive thing to do.

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Okay, I'm not clear on how you reached that gold amount so let me flesh out the example to see if we are understanding the rules correctly.

The mage casts Create Object (1 MP per 300 gc) to create Leather Boots (which he values at 20 gc since clothing is normally 0 gc but they are leather) with Enduring Object (2 MP) enhancement and plans to grant them +2 SPEED using the Speed (1 MP per 1 SPEED) enhancement. The GM indicates that since they will have a magical effect they will need to be at least high quality so their value increases to 160 gc. Based on this value and the enhancements used the mage estimates that the spell costs him 5 MP since it is not a large item (so no area cost), there is no range involved, and he does not have to add a duration since the effect is permanent. At this point the discussion about permanence begins.

As for the "enchanting" an item, this is more of a secondary question. Basically, the mage later asks if he is able to "enchant" items with spell effects based on the wording of the charging ability under magic. The GM agrees and points out the examples like Bless Weapon on the website. Then the mage clarifies that he want he wants to know is if he can permanently "enchant" items based on the fact that he has the Enduring Object enhancement which would allow him to create permanent magic items anyway if his points in the earlier conversation are valid.

Ah, I see what you mean. The boots do indeed endure, but the speed effect doesn't; it needs a duration. You can't use enduring object to get free permancy duration on a spell effect - it just makes the object itself permanent.

The 44K is from Fantasy Equipment - designing magic items. Their value is 100gc times the square of the MP cost. But you weren't asking about the value of the item; I misunderstood the question a little.

Caveat; I am using my knowledge of EoM and the material on the WOIN website.. so I might be off...

Key point is that the Enduring Object enhancement is not 'permanency'. The spell you described would create a set of High Quality boots that would, for the first minute of existence, provide a boost of +2 to the wearers speed.

In order to do this by the current rules on the website, you would have to add 21 MP for permanency ...

If I recall the EoM rules on creating magic items {and they have not changed significantly}, the requirements are a duration of 10 minutes on the spells { +2 MP} and an XP and gold piece cost. As mentioned, it is much cheaper to build a x-times a day than it is a permanent.
I don't want to go into too many details as those details will probably have changed


edit: ninja'd'.. and wrong

Primitive Screwhead said:

Caveat; I am using my knowledge of EoM and the material on the WOIN website.. so I might be off...

Key point is that the Enduring Object enhancement is not 'permanency'. The spell you described would create a set of High Quality boots that would, for the first minute of existence, provide a boost of +2 to the wearers speed.

In order to do this by the current rules on the website, you would have to add 21 MP for permanency ...

If I recall the EoM rules on creating magic items {and they have not changed significantly}, the requirements are a duration of 10 minutes on the spells { +2 MP} and an XP and gold piece cost. As mentioned, it is much cheaper to build a x-times a day than it is a permanent.
I don't want to go into too many details as those details will probably have changed


edit: ninja'd'.. and wrong

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Thanks Primitive! We were discussing similar points when this came during the game but we were unclear on the exact details since the website didn't seem to agree. We hadn't looked at Fantasy Equipment though as Morrus mentions above so we should have done that.

Morrus said:

Ah, I see what you mean. The boots do indeed endure, but the speed effect doesn't; it needs a duration. You can't use enduring object to get free permancy duration on a spell effect - it just makes the object itself permanent.

The 44K is from Fantasy Equipment - designing magic items. Their value is 100gc times the square of the MP cost. But you weren't asking about the value of the item; I misunderstood the question a little.

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Thanks Morrus! So to clarify, if the mage wants to create permanent magical items or even items with a certain number of uses a day then he needs to do the value calculation and then uses that value as MP on top of the original MP cost? Using the example of the Boots of +2 SPEED from earlier, they cost a base of 5 MP which is squared to 25 MP and multiplied by 100 gc to 2500 gc. This number is then divided by 300 gc (based on the fact that Create Object costs 1 MP per 300 gc) to get a result of 9 MP (by rounding up from 8). Assuming this math is correct he could create the Boots of +2 SPEED as permenant magic boots that increase land speed by 2.

However, I know that this math is wrong but it doesn't come close to value amount that you mentioned. As such, I took a quick look at Fantasy Equipment and I see that the MP cost increases based on the number of uses per day. So to make it an at-will it becomes 14 MP but that still isn't a permanent passive. Is there something I'm missing? Or can I go back to the mage and the GM and let them know that all enchantments require actions to activate? Either way, can you confirm that I'm doing the math right and correct me if I'm not? Thanks!

Angusto said:

Thanks Morrus! So to clarify, if the mage wants to create permanent magical items or even items with a certain number of uses a day then he needs to do the value calculation and then uses that value as MP on top of the original MP cost?

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No, you're conflating two different systems there. The one in Fantasy Equipment is for designing magic items for PCs to buy. It's not for use for PCs to cast spells on items during play.

Using the example of the Boots of +2 SPEED from earlier, they cost a base of 5 MP which is squared to 25 MP and multiplied by 100 gc to 2500 gc. This number is then divided by 300 gc (based on the fact that Create Object costs 1 MP per 300 gc) to get a result of 9 MP (by rounding up from 8). Assuming this math is correct he could create the Boots of +2 SPEED as permenant magic boots that increase land speed by 2.

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Using the magic rules to create object, there's no way to get permanency without spending 21 MP.

However, I know that this math is wrong but it doesn't come close to value amount that you mentioned. As such, I took a quick look at Fantasy Equipment and I see that the MP cost increases based on the number of uses per day. So to make it an at-will it becomes 14 MP but that still isn't a permanent passive. Is there something I'm missing? Or can I go back to the mage and the GM and let them know that all enchantments require actions to activate? Either way, can you confirm that I'm doing the math right and correct me if I'm not? Thanks!

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To be honest, I've totally lost track! But no, that 41K was part of the conflation. Don't worry about that. I thought you wanted to take a 21MP permanency and apply it to the Fantasy Equipment system.

If you used the Fantasy Equipment system to devise a magic item your players could buy or find:
1. Get a pair of exceptional quality boots (either buy them, make them, or conjure them*).
2. Once you had a pair of such boots, you'd then use 2MP to give them +2 SPEED, and 5 MP for an at-will ability. You can leave the duration at 0 MP (up to one minute).
3. Take your 7 MP total, square it, and multiple by 100 = 4,900gc. Plus whatever the cost of a pair of exceptional boots is (unless you conjured them*).
4. You can now at-will spend two actions to activate the boots for one minute.

*If you conjure them, you can use enduring object to make the boots permanent, but that's all that does. Gives you a pair of boots which won't vanish. You then have to enchant them.

If your player tries to simply use magic to enchant a pair of boots:
1. Get a pair of exceptional quality boots (either buy them, make them, or conjure them*). That's the only monetary value you need to worry about.
2. Once you had a pair of such boots, you'd then use 2MP to give them +2 SPEED, and 21MP to make that enchantment permanent. So it would cost 23MP. You'd need to be a pretty powerful caster to pull that off.
3. You now have a pair of boots which permanently give you +2 SPEED.

It's pretty hard to create permanent magic items that way. Realistically, the player isn't going to be able to do it the second way; the first way is the best way to go, but you only have the design math so far, not the actual rules on how long and what it costs a PC to make such things. That's in EoM, but for now you can assume as a quick rule that it costs half the value (so 2,450gc) in components and the like, and one day per MP (so 7 days).

Morrus said:

Using the magic rules to create object, there's no way to get permanency without spending 21 MP.

Click to expand...

Morrus said:

To be honest, I've totally lost track! But no, that 41K was part of the conflation. Don't worry about that. I thought you wanted to take a 21MP permanency and apply it to the Fantasy Equipment system.

If you used the Fantasy Equipment system to devise a magic item your players could buy or find:
1. Get a pair of exceptional quality boots (either buy them, make them, or conjure them*).
2. Once you had a pair of such boots, you'd then use 2MP to give them +2 SPEED, and 5 MP for an at-will ability. You can leave the duration at 0 MP (up to one minute).
3. Take your 7 MP total, square it, and multiple by 100 = 4,900gc. Plus whatever the cost of a pair of exceptional boots is (unless you conjured them*).
4. You can now at-will spend two actions to activate the boots for one minute.

*If you conjure them, you can use enduring object to make the boots permanent, but that's all that does. Gives you a pair of boots which won't vanish. You then have to enchant them.

If your player tries to simply use magic to enchant a pair of boots:
1. Get a pair of exceptional quality boots (either buy them, make them, or conjure them*). That's the only monetary value you need to worry about.
2. Once you had a pair of such boots, you'd then use 2MP to give them +2 SPEED, and 21MP to make that enchantment permanent. So it would cost 23MP. You'd need to be a pretty powerful caster to pull that off.
3. You now have a pair of boots which permanently give you +2 SPEED.

It's pretty hard to create permanent magic items that way. Realistically, the player isn't going to be able to do it the second way; the first way is the best way to go, but you only have the design math so far, not the actual rules on how long and what it costs a PC to make such things. That's in EoM, but for now you can assume as a quick rule that it costs half the value (so 2,450gc) in components and the like, and one day per MP (so 7 days).

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Thank you Morrus! This information is exactly what I needed. I will take this information back to the GM and the mage! You are correct that it would require a powerful caster to pull this off but since we are using the Purchasing system of levelling, our mage is actually a fairly powerful caster (i.e. he bought MAGIC attribute early on and we are fairly far in so at 16 grades he has a MAGIC attribute of 21). He still won't be able to do anything like this though so the question of permanent passive magic items is now settled.

Thanks again for all your assistance and clarification on this!

16 grades? Wow! How long have you guys been playing for?