Harassment in gaming

nedjer said:

It will begin to change for real when publishers and designers act to remedy the situation; which relies in part on players and GMs adopting a preference for content which gets, and stays, beyond toys for boys gaming.

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This is absurd. There's nothing wrong with masculine gaming content ("toys for boys"). No correlation has been shown between it and real life misogyny and harassment. This is like saying racism will begin to change for real when white people stop using sunscreen and listening to country music.

Over the years I have had this conversation with other women on why we didn't report or make stink about someone harassing us. One of the biggest reasons is that we don't want to call attention to ourselves and end up in the situation of being judged. We have all known or heard stories of a woman who speaks up about harassment say at their jobs and then even if they can back it up they go through hell and it often is the kiss of death of your career at that company or in that field.

A lot of harassment is not witnessed and it becomes he said she said and you risk being called a liar your story gets judged just like this woman was by a poster here. We are raised to keep the peace don't make a fuss and sometimes it is easier to just try and ignore it or tell ourselves that it was not that bad.

It is a bad enough to be groped or raped and then have to tell your story to people looking to poke holes in it. To face the judgement of what did you do to put yourself in this position. Why were you at a frat party, why were you dressed in a reveling cosplay costume at a con.

Go onto any board about how cosplay does not equal consent and you will see dozens of angry posts from men claiming that these women are only complaining about ugly guys that they don't mind attractive guys hitting on them. It is the same if you post a video of a woman walking down the street and all the comments directed at her. Men will cry what is wrong with telling her she looks pretty completely missing the point.

I have two female roommates and we were discussing the really annoying thing of men telling us to smile. What gives a perfect stranger the right to dictate to anyone else how to express how they feel? I lost it one day at some guy who told me that. I had just found out that my best friend was dying and I was sitting on a bench waiting for my son to come out of a store. But even if I was just tired or in a bad mood I don't owe a stranger anything. It is the same when a complete strangers says hi and then gets mad if you don't respond.

My experience at the game store sent a message loud and clear don't make waves.

And even when we do report it we often face what my friend faced with the security guard at the con where her daughter was blamed for bending over to take a drink.

You know that this is being discussed on other boards and not all of them are as civil as here. I believe that is because this board is is moderated on a forum that is not then it very quickly becomes a toxic place for any woman and man who speaks up. Words like femnazi and SJWs starts getting thrown around. Most women don't want to wade into that quagmire to try and explain why this is harmful.

double post

Libramarian said:

This is absurd. There's nothing wrong with masculine gaming content ("toys for boys"). No correlation has been shown between it and real life misogyny and harassment. This is like saying racism will begin to change for real when white people stop using sunscreen and listening to country music.

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I think that depends if the game setting is set up in away that there are no female NPCs in power and the only female NPCs are there to be used for the male PCs as sex objects the lusty tavern wench or to be rescued and given as a reward to the male pC the whole rescue the princess and you get to marry her. Then you are setting up a game where female players are made to feel not welcomed and you are giving the message to the male players that this is their hobby so why should they go out of their way to make it welcoming for women.

It may not lead to misogyny and sexism in the male players entire life but the subtle message is there boys club girls stay out.

It is the same if all the NPCs are white then people of color may not feel welcomed. It subtle but the message even if that is not what the game designer intended is there.

I'm not sure what is meant by "masculine gaming content" when it applies to tabletop RPG?

Ancalagon said:

I'm not sure what is meant by "masculine gaming content" when it applies to tabletop RPG?

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Two 20 siders in a fuzzy dice bag and a stubby wax pencil?








You know...to hi/lo mark the 20 siders.

Libramarian said:

My opinion is the author created the vignettes (either out of whole cloth or loosely based on real events) to illustrate what this sort of discrimination looks like, for the purpose of generating empathetic insight. I'm not going to vilify her for this (as long as she's not accusing real people of anything) but I am going to share this opinion when I see people getting depressed by it and hating themselves for being gamers, or for being men.

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No one should hate themselves for being men or gamers, and I don't think the examples are intended to make men or gamers hate themselves for simply being men or gamers. The only things related to the article that people should hate themselves for is engaging in, tolerating, or covering up harassment, and blaming, shaming, or threatening victims of harassment (particularly those who speak up).

Umbran said:

At the moment, you are not providing *constructive* criticism. Note that, if it didn't have the strong language, we probably would not be discussing the piece, or the topic. So, what should the author have done instead, that would have been at least as effective? What else would have made Ancalagon and Rechan want to post about it instead, hm?

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I took one look at the heading with white terrorists in it and the tone of the first few paragraphs and clicked close. Had the hyperbole and attacks against all men not been in there, I would have read the whole thing. That sort of language drives away a lot of people who would otherwise be interested.

Anyone who listens to and accepts your logical fallacy is distracted and redirected, because "not all men" is, when all is said and done, an attempt to dismiss a call to action. Anyone who wants people to engage with that call to action must, perforce, spend time dealing with the logical fallacy before we can maximize actual action. You are distracted, we are distracted, action is weakened. So, really, you're in the way.

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It's not wrong or even bad to be defensive when attacked. Her attack on "all men" warrants a defense of "not all men." It doesn't make her wrong for speaking out, but any distraction caused by men being defensive can be traced back to her generalized attack.

She can use strong language to get her point across without attacking people who are innocent. There would be a lot less distraction and a lot more support if she had done that.

Real people, in the real world, cannot have all things. We need to prioritize. Do you want to prioritize your own discomfiture, and that of other men? Is that the priority here?

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Human nature is human nature. We defend ourselves when attacked. The best way to avoid that is not to attack people. She was attacked and so she is defending herself. However, she in her response is attacking innocent men and so they are defending themselves. Yes, it's a distraction, but it's not one that is going to go away so long as she keeps attacking the wrong people.

was said:

..When I read this article, I was absolutely shocked and appalled. I have been gaming for nearly 24 years and have never seen this sort of offensive behavior. IME, male gamers tend to be more timid in approaching women.

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I agree with your point that male gamers tend to be more timid when approaching women. However, my personal experience requires that I throw in some caveats:

1) Gamers of different types are different. It has been my experience that video gamers are bolder than card/board/ttrpg gamers.

2) If you get similar people together as a group, even those who are normally more timid, they feel safer and get bolder, which can approach a mob mentality in some instances.

was said:

..IMO, no gamer should tolerate the harassment of a fellow gamer. We face enough abuse from outside the community to tolerate it from within.

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There are not enough +1, thumbs-up, and Xp buttons on the internet for me to show my proper level of agreement with that.

Actually, she didn't attack "all men", she attacked "white male terrorists"*. Being a PoC, I'm not in her sights.

Don't get me wrong- PoC males can be just as sexist as white males. And the are women sex offenders as well. But this hobby is demographically overwhelmingly white and male (at least in the USA). I'm 48 years old, been playing RPGs since 1977 in 3 states and 5 different cities- two of which are among the USA's most populous- and I've only encountered 3 other black gamers (all male, FWIW). I know more women gamers than minorities...but not many.

IOW, the statistical probability that a sexual assault offender within the hobby is going be a white male is pretty much a guarantee.








* and those who are complicit by silence and inaction.