D&D 5E [GUIDE] I Fought the Law and Won: The Rogue Guide

vostygg · Apr 27, 2019

Yunru said:
If only someone had worked it out across every level so we could just check out the points where BB changes (<5,5,11,17), since that'd give a best-case for BB.

As it happens, I have those numbers right here. The percentage for each level represents the minimum frequency with which the BB rider damage has to trigger in order for the DPR of a BB Swashbuckler to exceed that of a TWF Swashbuckler, without factoring in the Dual Wielder feat. If the percentage is greater than 100%, it means that the DPR of the BB Swashbuckler cannot be made to equal that of the TWF Swashbuckler at that level, even if the BB rider damage triggers 100% of the time.

Level 1: 93.8850%

Level 2: 93.8850%

Level 3: >100.0000%

Level 4: >100.0000%

Level 5: 26.4850%

Level 6: 26.4850%

Level 7: 43.3350%

Level 8: 43.3350%

Level 9: 60.1850%

Level 10: 60.1850%

Level 11: 15.2449%

Level 12: 15.2449%

Level 13: 26.4850%

Level 14: 26.4850%

Level 15: 37.7150%

Level 16: 37.7150%

Level 17: 9.6250%

Level 18: 9.6250%

Level 19: 18.0549%

Level 20: 18.0549%

At the levels which see the most play (1-10), TWF is dominant, with break-even points above 60% for 6 out of the 10 levels.

Here is an example of the math at level 5. Feel free to point out any errors you think you may see:

TWF DPR at Level 5:

Regular DPR (Main Hand): 0.6 * (avg(1d6) + 4) = 0.6 * (3.5 + 4) = 0.6 * 7.5 = 4.5
Crit DPR (Main Hand): 0.05 * avg(1d6) = 0.05 * 3.5 = 0.175
Regular DPR (Off Hand): 0.6 * avg(1d6) = 0.6 * 3.5 = 2.1
Crit DPR (Off Hand): 0.05 * avg(1d6) = 0.05 * 3.5 = 0.175
Regular Sneak Attack DPR: (1 - 0.4 * 0.4) * avg(3d6) = 0.84 * 10.5 = 8.82
Crit Sneak Attack DPR: 0.05 * avg(3d6) + (0.4 * 0.05 * avg(3d6)) = 0.05 * 10.5 + (0.02 * 10.5) = 0.735

Total DPR: 16.505

BB DPR at Level 5:

Regular DPR: 0.6 * (avg(2d8) + 4) = 0.6 * (9 + 4) = 0.6 * 13 = 7.8
Crit DPR: 0.05 * avg(2d8) = 0.05 * 9 = 0.45
Regular Sneak Attack DPR: 0.6 * avg(3d6) = 0.6 * 10.5 = 6.3
Crit Sneak Attack DPR: 0.05 * avg(3d6) = 0.05 * 10.5 = 0.525
Rider Damage DPR: 0.6 * (0.26485 * avg(2d8)) = 0.6 * (0.26485 * 9) = 1.4302

Total DPR: 16.5052

Yunru said:
I see your Dual Wielder and raise you a Shield Master.

Except that the bonus action Shove takes place AFTER you use your Attack action, or are we cherry-picking the parts of the Sage Advice Compendium that benefit our characters, and ignoring the rest?

Yunru said:
For someone complaining about snark (in regards to a post that genuinely had none), this sure is a lot of snark.

I only snark in self-defense. Whether you intended it or not, your post came across as very snarky. Self-awareness is a good thing!

Yunru · Apr 27, 2019

vostygg said:
Except that the bonus action Shove takes place AFTER you use your Attack action

Why does that matter? You're wanting to do that anyway so they have to move back and take extra damage.
(N.B. You're shoving away, not prone)

vostygg · Apr 27, 2019

Esker said:
The owl familiar is certainly in YMMV territory, but my AT's owl doesn't get killed too often. But part of the reason for that is that there are often other sources of advantage available, so I don’t have to make constant flybys.

With shadow blade I automatically get advantage in dim light. When not in dim light I'll often use Web to restrain enemies.

Granted these are not available to a swashbuckler - - another reason to prefer AT, though it also helps that I took wizard levels for more slots - - but other characters can provide advantage as well: faerie fire and blindness are two that come up a lot at my table, but if you have a battlemaster or a character with shield master, they have a lot of ways to give you advantage too. Our cleric will occasionally use an action to dim the lights using thaumaturgy once she has her concentration spell up.

I think most people recognize how valuable advantage is to a rogue (especially one with booming blade and elven accuracy as mine has) that they're likely to work a bit at giving it to you.

All very good points, though also very situational. I play in a lot of groups where the players are not very tactical.

vostygg · Apr 27, 2019

Yunru said:
Why does that matter? You're wanting to do that anyway so they have to move back and take extra damage.
(N.B. You're shoving away, not prone)

I see. I thought you were trying to use it as a consistent source of advantage, but you are instead using it to up the probability that your rider damage will trigger against opponents with no ranged capabilities. Sure, I'll buy it. I still very much doubt you'll reach the frequencies you need to overtake TWF with Dual Wielder, especially from levels 1-10. I'd be happy to post those break-even points if you'd like.

Esker · Apr 27, 2019

vostygg said:
All very good points, though also very situational. I play in a lot of groups where the players are not very tactical.

Dim lighting is situational, albeit a pretty common situation. Shield master / battlemaster setup is dependent on initiative order, but has roughly a 50/50 chance of falling the right way. The other spells have luck/resource/concentration factors that prevent them from being sure things. In any given group you're likely to have a few of these kinds of sources available, and taken together they don't end up seeming that situational any more. If you save your owl flybys for situations when you don't have any other way of gaining advantage, it's not too hard to wind up with advantage a large majority of the time.

Most of my group isn't overly tactical either, but if I point out a tactic between sessions, they're generally receptive. And after all, some classes' entire roles is to do this kind of thing (lots of subclasses of the full arcane casters).

Speaking of situational, though, I would reiterate that the kinds of average DPR differences we're talking about in comparing TWF to BB are small enough at most levels that they really ought to be outweighed by situational/contextual considerations (party makeup, encounter makeup, opportunity costs, etc.). Either one is a reasonable way to fight, and it's a bit silly to try to claim that either one is strictly superior to the other.

vostygg · Apr 28, 2019

Esker said:
Speaking of situational, though, I would reiterate that the kinds of average DPR differences we're talking about in comparing TWF to BB are small enough at most levels that they really ought to be outweighed by situational/contextual considerations (party makeup, encounter makeup, opportunity costs, etc.). Either one is a reasonable way to fight, and it's a bit silly to try to claim that either one is strictly superior to the other.

I agree with this. I started my series of posts in an effort to debunk a commonly held belief I've encountered (a product of group-think I would guess), that Booming Blade is strictly better than TWF for Swashbucklers. By the numbers, TWF yields higher non-situational DPR at every level of play. Are there specific situations where Booming Blade can come out on top? Of course there are. YMMV based on situation and context.

shadowoflameth · Aug 31, 2020

I like the guide. I might note that if your campaign uses flanking it's even easier to get advantage. Also on the assassin with surprise being so important, see if your DM is open to surprise other than in the first round such as duck around a corner, become invisible etc. 'Where'd he go?' and if you can stealth up to the target before being spotted again, and if you use cunning action to hide before the target knows what or who hit him. The PHB talks about surprise being that the target is aware that there's a threat. Find out how your DM might handle those.

DakotaKid · Jan 10, 2021

I greatly appreciate the Guide, and raised a question for me: I'm considering playing a swashbuckler, and the 1 level dip into the fighter class makes a ton of sense. That said... Is there any reason to not start as a fighter (level 1), then multiclass to swashbuckler for the rest of the levels? As I see it, I'd gain on hp's (1d10 vs 1d8) and gain two preferred saving throws (STR/CON vs DEX/INT). The downside starting with 2 proficiencies (fighter) vs 4 (rogue). Am I missing something that makes starting as Rogue and MC to fighter better?

delph · Jan 12, 2021

DakotaKid said:
I greatly appreciate the Guide, and raised a question for me: I'm considering playing a swashbuckler, and the 1 level dip into the fighter class makes a ton of sense. That said... Is there any reason to not start as a fighter (level 1), then multiclass to swashbuckler for the rest of the levels? As I see it, I'd gain on hp's (1d10 vs 1d8) and gain two preferred saving throws (STR/CON vs DEX/INT). The downside starting with 2 proficiencies (fighter) vs 4 (rogue). Am I missing something that makes starting as Rogue and MC to fighter better?

If you wanna continue as rogue, you want to have Dex save as high as possible. Because 7th rogue ability Evasion build on it and it's pretty awesome.
There Is better have stout halfling to have advantage agains poisons most common save on constitution..