D&D 5E What is "broken" in 5e?

Ashkelon

First Post
You do realize that you use stunning strike on a successful hit. So taking hit chance into account really doesn't matter. The monk is making 3 attacks per round without spending ki, or 4 attacks with.

Even at only a 60% hit chance, the chance that the monk gets at least one hit will be quite high. Even the chance for two hits isn't particularly bad. A monk can quite easily stunlock an important enemy for a whole encounter. Alternatively, the monk can cause a monster to blow through all of its legendary resistances in a single round, opening the way for a plethora of powerful save or suck spells.
 

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Al'Kelhar

Adventurer
I'm not a designer, but I am a person that sees no issue with those two features as written, so maybe I can provide some insight?

1. Shadow Step. It's not as "at will" as you've phrased it because it requires you to be in dim light or darkness, and to be able to see an unoccupied area you actually want to teleport to that is also in dim light or darkness. Bright light shuts it down, and isn't all that hard to come by, plus it takes your bonus action so you are typically losing out on extra damage from an attack, or some other noteworthy benefit, to get advantage on a single attack assuming the power is fully utilized - which is typically not going to be a significant change in how fast you take down an opponent.

Yep, I acknowledge the limit on when Shadow Step can be used. But, unless your entire campaign occurs outdoors during the day, it isn't actually that uncommon for a monk - particularly one with darkvision - to be in dim light or darkness, and where they want to go to be in dim light or darkness. While encounters in occurring completely in bright light aren't unusual, frankly, neither are ones in which there are patches of dim light or darkness. So, by "at will", I don't mean "you can use this at any time, anywhere". It is, however, an unlimited resource, that can be used frequently. There is nothing to prevent a monk using it a dozen times in a combat in which there are patches of dim light or darkness.

I have several other issues with no-cost teleports. First, they make physical challenges redundant. Chasms and pits, high ledges, water/acid/lava pools, etc. etc. are easily bypassed or ignored. Again, I have no problem with PCs using limited resources to deal with such problems - that's expected, and consistent with the D&D game design philosophy since year dot. But, again, Shadow Step is resource free.

Second, as an extension of the first, they make minions in boss fights redundant. There's no having to "get past/through" the hordes of mooks to the evil boss if you can just teleport past them and lay the smack-down. Again, I have no problem with this if it costs you something (and I mean, something other than a "bonus action", which is, by definition, a bonus to your ordinary action and move).

Third, for monks, using a 60-foot teleport as a bonus action means they are able to move, in any given round in which they can use Shadow Step, at least 100 feet. And still make two attacks. The 6th level wood elf monk in my campaign, with the Mobility feat, can move 120 feet. It's like he's the friggin Flash. At 6th level. I'd be prepared for this sort of shenanigans for a 16th level monk, but 6th level?

Fortunately, for me, the solution was simple. Using Shadow Step requires spending 1 ki point.

2. Stunning Strike. It isn't as good as you make it out to be, since it requires both a successful attack roll and a failed saving throw, doesn't apply as deadly of condition, and also has a specific finite duration rather than being potentially multiple rounds of lost actions from a single resource expenditure.

To put the more important trait there, the needing of both a successful attack roll and a failed save to work, into perspective; let's imagine that the monk has a 70% chance to hit the target's AC, and the target has a 70% chance to fail the save. That means there is actually a 49% chance that the target is stunned while the chance for a successful hold monster against the same target is typically going to be much higher.

And even your statement that it can be cast up to 4 times per round isn't completely accurate because it accompanies your other statement that it can be cast monk level times per short rest - you can't actually make 4 attacks in a round without spending ki, so if you do one of these things you can't do the other.

Yep, I agree I was a bit hyperbolic. However, while it isn't as "good" as perhaps I've intimated, it's still ridiculously over powered for the level at which it's gained. Combine Stunning Blow with the Shadow Step, and there's very little chance the monk missing the first attack. Combine Stunning Fist with a Flurry of Blows, and the monk gets three or four chances at stunning the bad guy (Yes, I know you can't combine Shadow Step with Flurry of Blows). Sure, the monk might have used most of his ki points if he misses a few times, or the bad guy saves a couple of times, but basically, he's almost guaranteed to stun the bad guy. Until the end of his next turn. The bad guy doesn't get to save at the end of his turn, like he does against just about every spell that would incapacitate him. So the whole party has a guaranteed full round of wailing on a bad guy that cannot possibly do anything in response. Bad guy, if he survives the round, then tries to run away, and because Stunning Fist can be used with any unarmed attack, monk has another go at stunning the bad guy using his reaction. Way to make for a fun boss fight.

The above means that the monk keeps all of his ki points in reserve until the boss fight, and then unloads on the boss. So the design of the power drives particularly disappointing play behaviour - that of the "nova" round and the 5-minute-adventuring day. Sure, no-one "forces" the player of the monk to do this, but I query the design of a power that screams "spam me".

Not only does Stunning Fist have no action cost (it's not, e.g. once per turn, but can be used with any, and all, unarmed attacks), it has very little resource cost - 1 ki point. A monk gets all of his ki points back after a short rest. Want to trying stunning bad guys 20 times a day? Sure can. Although the action economy has always been a thing in D&D, designers really started thinking hard about it - and making sure it "worked" - in 4E. And how rare and high level were stun powers in 4E? Stunning breaks action economy. It screws over the stunned target completely. That monks in 5E can stun opponents from 4th level, repeatedly, at very little real resource or action cost, is, in my opinion, a curious design choice.

Of course, this is all Just My Opinion(TM).

Cheers, Al'kelhar
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
You do realize that you use stunning strike on a successful hit. So taking hit chance into account really doesn't matter.
It absolutely does, assuming you are trying to make a fair comparison of what it takes to achieve a result with X compared to what it takes with Y.

If you are going to ignore that actually landing an attack is an important step between "I'm going to try to stun X" and "You've stunned X", you aren't getting a clear picture of how the traits that go into that attempt stack up against other traits available in the game.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
<snipped to save space>Cheers, Al'kelhar
Yeah, cheers.

I'm not going to try to talk you out of anything, but I will say that I think you are kind of designing the situation you don't want to happen by making all the factors that go into it seem, or actually be, smaller than they are.

I'm not entirely certain, but that's mostly because my player that is playing a monk might actually need a reminder that he can try to stun his targets, because he's not even made an attempt at it for a dozen sessions at least.
 

Corwin

Explorer
IMHO, if the monk is constantly feeling the need to have to stun opponents in every fight, there is something odd going on at the table. If the group can take down their enemy/ies in a fight, even should the monk be out of ki, then the fight is winnable without needing to stun. And, having played a monk for many levels, those ki points are precious. Dodge, flurry, disengage/dash with double jump, throwing a deflected missile back. There's a *lot* of ways to spend that limited resource. Not to mention how expensive (4 or 8 ki a pop) the high level monk abilities are. I seldom find trying to stun an opponent as the best use of my ki. Sure, I've used it. And it has its uses (when it actually manages to work successfully). Very potent when used wisely. But every fight? Heck no. Not even close. If there's one thing I've found I've used the majority of my ki on, it's Patient Defense. Hands down.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I've always found two features of monks... troublesome.

1. Shadow Step. At will, 60-foot teleport as a bonus action, with advantage on the first attack roll afterwards. Shouldn't this at least be a ki power?

2. Stunning Blow. A hold monster spell that can be cast [monk level] times every short rest, can be cast up to 4 times per round, and can be cast as a reaction.

I'm a bit curious as to design thinking behind these two.

Cheers, Al'kelhar

And yet, we've had several threads where people complain the monk is a weak class because it's DPR is low.

It's almost like some classes have other things they are really good at because they're not as good in other things...
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
IMHO, if the monk is constantly feeling the need to have to stun opponents in every fight, there is something odd going on at the table. If the group can take down their enemy/ies in a fight, even should the monk be out of ki, then the fight is winnable without needing to stun. And, having played a monk for many levels, those ki points are precious. Dodge, flurry, disengage/dash with double jump, throwing a deflected missile back. There's a *lot* of ways to spend that limited resource. Not to mention how expensive (4 or 8 ki a pop) the high level monk abilities are. I seldom find trying to stun an opponent as the best use of my ki. Sure, I've used it. And it has its uses (when it actually manages to work successfully). Very potent when used wisely. But every fight? Heck no. Not even close. If there's one thing I've found I've used the majority of my ki on, it's Patient Defense. Hands down.

Having seen a monk played for many levels, and hearing the stories of a monk played 1-10(11? 12?) in the Tiamat adventure path at my local FLGS, the general consensus is that the monk is not a primary damage dealer, and that it's two main contributions are getting to opponents like casters and shutting them down (skirmishing) and stunning for crowd control. Stunning works for both of them.

Having lots of ways to spend a limited resource does not mean that all ways to spend that limited resource are equal.

You talk about spending 4 or 8 ki on a single ability, but realize that one use of that could fund an entire combat's worth of stunning attempts. Is one more use of that high level ability better in all cases then locking down a caster or high damage dealer?
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I played a shadow monk up to level 10 (before he died). I certainly wasn't the biggest damage dealer, but I had a lot of options. IMO, those monk abilities weren't OP because ki is pretty limited. Even at 10th level, that's only 10 ki points, and there are SO many things to spend them on that keep coming up.

I could easily go through ki like Rob Ford going through coke in a room full of hookers, and it wasn't all for the famous stunlock, but for a lot of other things.
 

Corwin

Explorer
Having seen a monk played for many levels, and hearing the stories of a monk played 1-10(11? 12?) in the Tiamat adventure path at my local FLGS, the general consensus is that the monk is not a primary damage dealer, and that it's two main contributions are getting to opponents like casters and shutting them down (skirmishing) and stunning for crowd control. Stunning works for both of them.
I'm not seeing the contradiction to what I said. Are you agreeing with me here? Or was this some sort of strawman, perhaps? I'm pretty sure I said Stunning Strike had its uses and can be very potent.

Having lots of ways to spend a limited resource does not mean that all ways to spend that limited resource are equal.
More of you not disagreeing with me? Cool. I think? We appear, on the surface, to be on the same page.

You talk about spending 4 or 8 ki on a single ability, but realize that one use of that could fund an entire combat's worth of stunning attempts. Is one more use of that high level ability better in all cases then locking down a caster or high damage dealer?
Is it? Hard to say given a lack of specific scenario data to base a conclusion on. Let me turn it around for a sec. What good are a handful of stun attempts when you need to astrally project? I find your kind of white room speculation to be a trap.
 

Satyrn

First Post
I'm not entirely certain, but that's mostly because my player that is playing a monk might actually need a reminder that he can try to stun his targets, because he's not even made an attempt at it for a dozen sessions at least.
*raises hand*

Yeah, that's me. No, I'm not your player, but I'm very much that sort of player. I think my whole group is that sort of player. Lots of abilities go unused for stretches of time, and then someone exclaims

"Oh hey! I could've just shadowstepped across that chasm back there!"
 

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