D&D 5E Let's Talk About Yawning Portal

zaratan · Mar 28, 2017

CapnZapp said:
This is still using the reasonable "how hard can it be?" line of thought.

But it is completely insufficient to describe the real situation.

Take a representative encounter from Out of the Abyss as an example: where 10th or 12th level heroes are pitted against...

Goblins. Or Minotaurs.

It's not a matter of just adding one more Minotaur or a couple of extra goblin archers and a boss bugbear. If that would have helped, things would be reasonable and nobody would be complaining.

But it's not. It's so off the scale easy it isn't funny.

The reason I use the denigrating term "carebearian" is because 5e is far too often completely and utterly off base in its challenge level.

You don't need an extra Minotaur to properly challenge mid- to high-level characters. You need to entirely erase the idea that such lowly creatures are appropriate at all, then you need to scrap the encounter and start from scratch. Perhaps a Goristro or two, with a dozen Minotaurs as mooks.

The point is that in previous editions, your line of thought held true. Even when things perhaps became a tad easy for power gamers, the game was still in roughly the same ballpark.

5e on the other hand, is noticeably and aggravitingly made so easy it impacts your DM preparations.

I am entirely unaccustomed to finding that published modules are unusable as written and must be essentially rewritten to offer any challenge whatsoever and I don't like it.

More to the point, I dislike how some posters uncritically let WotC get away with it, with the "think of the children" argument.

I dont buy that for a second.

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I need yo agree. Is obvious that if my part is more optimized than the standard (no multiclass, no fest, no magic item, no min/max) is my obligation as DM to bump things. But some encounters they set doesn't make any sense.
Just a close read in ToH, first creature encounter that can happen is... one gargoyle. Yes, one stupid CR2 (450xp) to 4 or 5 lvl 13+ players. I know ToH isn't about creature encounters and PC should suffer some damage before reach this area, but what is the chance of tha gargoyle act before get killed? An easy encounter for a lvl 13 character should be 1100xp, for one character!
Would be that hard to but a golem gargoyle like instead? There is a trap with 1d3 poisonous snake too, really threatening.

About the traps, half need a perception check DC 15. Seriously, DC 15 for lvl 13+ in the most common skill to get proficiency. But at least if they fail they will take a deadly damage right? Well most traps do max of 2d10. But the setback damage for character of lvl 11 to 16 shouldn't be 4d10?
Well, I didn't read all ToH yet, but looks like, unless DM don't let players rest, this will not be really deadly.

iserith · Mar 28, 2017

Lanefan said:
You make it sound as if those tasks can't be done more than one at a time; but why not? One person can map (and navigate, these kinda go together), while another searches for secret doors (and traps, searching is searching) and a third and maybe fourth keep alert for threats from elsewhere.

Failing that, slow down. Clear an area of traps (and check for tracks) first, then go back over it and search for secret doors.

Huh? My post clearly states that "a character" can do one task. So yeah, multiple characters can do multiple tasks. It matters though what each individual is doing when it comes to determining surprise (as an example). If you're doing something other than Staying Alert, you are surprised by the lurking monster or don't notice the hidden trap. So there's a trade-off there, a meaningful choice to make.

Lanefan said:
While I kinda disagree with this on a general basis - there's nothing saying the DM has to specifically telegraph anything - I have to more forcefully disagree in the specific case of ToH which is in fact supposed to be the sort of dungeon where if you don't do the exact right thing you'll come out in a coffin; and it's the DM's job to help you do the wrong thing.

That said, it sounds from reading above like maybe it's not as deadly as the original ToH anyway; I haven't seen it yet myself.

Lanefan

Maybe that's just how you played ToH back in the day or how you heard it's supposed to be played. For there to be a fair challenge, however, we can't rely on "gotchas" in my view. As DMs, we are tasked with faithfully describing the environment (Basic Rules). As well, some element of a trap is usually visible to careful inspection (DMG) - Staying Alert should in my view provide a chance at detecting that trap. Telegraphing means you're including some clue when describing the environment that there's something going on worth inspecting further. Sometimes the players pick up on it. Sometimes they don't. When they don't and run afoul of the trap, they can look back and go "Right, I should have inspected that thing the DM described." That is a reaction to a fairly presented challenge - they had an opportunity to make an informed decision and failed to do so by their own choice. In my experience, you get a very different reaction when you jack someone's character after the DM purposefully withheld information or encouraged the player to do the wrong thing because he or she has an agenda. That's adversarial and goes against what the game tells us about the role of the DM. I'll say it again - deadly dungeons can be great fun. But not when that deadliness is chiefly because the DM is being unfair.

While it's related to the topic in a way, this is good fodder for another discussion if anyone wants to start a thread.

Zaukrie · Mar 28, 2017

I am disappointed that dead in thay takes up this much space. And while I will use parts of this, it does seem like wotc is understaffed if this is all we can get. Color me mildly disappointed

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FitzTheRuke · Mar 28, 2017

At first read I also thought ToH looks way way too easy. I don't play with power gamers (sometimes I don't understand how they can do so *little* - I have a 9th level barbarian in the party who never seems to do more than about 7 damage in a turn) but STILL... the traps don't look like they will kill my players, and the monsters sure as heck won't. (Maybe the demilich, I would HOPE)

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Gradine · Mar 28, 2017

Azzy said:
No, it was Anton Chekov.

Correct; he's confusing two different quotes. Chekhov said that if you put a gun on the wall in first act, it needs to be fired in the final act (hence, any plot element introduced early on that seems irrelevant when introduced but is vitally important to the climax/conclusion is referred to as a "Chekhov's Gun").

Raymond Chandler had a different piece of advice for writers regarding guns: "When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand." Basically; if you find yourself written into a corner, plotwise, introduce a new element or complication, typically a burst of violence, to shake the protagonist(s) back into action. One of the more famous deliberate examples comes from Stephen Kind's The Stand, where his protagonists were kind of stuck in a rut, so he had a bomb blow up multiple characters and the shake the remaining protagonists into moving forward towards the ultimate confrontation and climax.

In this instance, the well in the Yawning Portal Inn is a Chekhov's Gun that never actually fires, at least as written in the adventure. There have been several good suggestions about how to incorporate it though, which I certainly intend to use if I ever run it myself.

JonnyP71 · Mar 28, 2017

FitzTheRuke said:
At first read I also thought ToH looks way way too easy. I don't play with power gamers (sometimes I don't understand how they can do so *little* - I have a 9th level barbarian in the party who never seems to do more than about 7 damage in a turn) but STILL... the traps don't look like they will kill my players, and the monsters sure as heck won't. (Maybe the demilich, I would HOPE)

It is.

Rank stupidity will still get you killed, but the assuming a modicum of common sense most parties should reach the Demi-Lich, and they aren't that frightening any more.

Easy fix - add a means of preventing the party from taking any rests, either short or long. Then it would become a challenge. (problem for me is, one of the keys to success in the original was the realisation you had as much time as you had rations for!)

Reynard · Mar 28, 2017

JonnyP71 said:
It is.

Rank stupidity will still get you killed, but the assuming a modicum of common sense most parties should reach the Demi-Lich, and they aren't that frightening any more.

Easy fix - add a means of preventing the party from taking any rests, either short or long. Then it would become a challenge. (problem for me is, one of the keys to success in the original was the realisation you had as much time as you had rations for!)

Of course the adventure itself takes pains to say the PCs can safely rest with no random encounters.

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JonnyP71 · Mar 28, 2017

Easily ignored.

And given the nerfing of the poison traps, weaker explosions, and the fact that Green Slime is no longer something to really fear - it might be necessary in order to make the Tomb feared once more - what's the point of 8d6 damage (with a save for half) against a party of level 11s with bags of hp and the ability to recover it all again at will?

Reynard · Mar 28, 2017

JonnyP71 said:
Easily ignored.

And given the nerfing of the poison traps, weaker explosions, and the fact that Green Slime is no longer something to really fear - it might be necessary in order to make the Tomb feared once more - what's the point of 8d6 damage (with a save for half) against a party of level 11s with bags of hp and the ability to recover it all again at will?

I wonder if you can call the adventure a successful design if the GM is forced to rewrite most of it in order to achieve its stated goals.

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