ZEITGEIST [ZEITGEIST] End of Eschatologist Arc in Adv #5 (Spoilers, naturally)

Is it just me or is the bomb disarming challenge, as written, incredibly difficult? Making 7 rolls, each becoming increasingly difficult, and failing ignites a terribly explosive bomb that would probably kill everyone around, seems a bit likely to become a TPK. How did everyone else play this encounter?

The price of mistake is pretty high, but the checks are only Easy to Moderate DC (better not spell it to players though). With half-decent player builds they are likely to autosuccess all of them even on bad roll, especially with conditional modifiers (Technologist, Arcana). Remember that players can Aid Another for stacking +2 (and +8 bonus is just stupidly good, so it's reasonable to limit such stacking, i.e. only two persons can examine the bomb at the same time). Depending on players, they can come to the challenge prepared with one-time magic items for fire suppression and/or Thievery skill boosts. If they have wayfarer's lantern with some witchoil, they can bypass the entire challenge, just shifting the bomb into the Bleak Gate at the last moment. The explosion will likely be still felt in the real world, but definitely not so destructive.

EDIT: regarding my own party... We completely crashed the rails in adventure 5, so dwarves delivered their bomb right in the middle of the battle with Born in Flint Bay, on board of a small steam boat. Where they promtly discovered that they cannot actually catch up with the speed of RNS "Normandy" of my party, so it was actually Born who tested the might of the explosion (and remained unimpressed)

The important checks seem to be disable device DC 16-21 With the pc's likely to have a +4 bonus from detect magic and a technologist. They will be level 7 or 8 , assuming any of them have disable device then 7 skill ranks, 3 favoured class and +3 or more from stat so probably +17 on their skill check. so the first 3 checks cannot be failed only the dc 19-21 checks can be failed and I expect a higher dex than the minimum above so probably only 1 check can be failed on a 1 , and if the pc with disable device is a technologist he can't fail any of the checks.

If none of your players have disable device they are in trouble but in that case I would let them take a B-Team constable or expert of some kind who stands a good chance of success

Andrew Moreton said:

The important checks seem to be disable device DC 16-21 With the pc's likely to have a +4 bonus from detect magic and a technologist. They will be level 7 or 8 , assuming any of them have disable device then 7 skill ranks, 3 favoured class and +3 or more from stat so probably +17 on their skill check. so the first 3 checks cannot be failed only the dc 19-21 checks can be failed and I expect a higher dex than the minimum above so probably only 1 check can be failed on a 1 , and if the pc with disable device is a technologist he can't fail any of the checks.

Click to expand...

See, there's a lot of assumptions here - the party's Slayer has 8 skill ranks, +3 from class bonus, only +2 Dex (but an additional +2 from Cat's Grace, possibly), so that's only +13. There's no technologist, and unless I say outright 'you can use detect magic', it's not really guaranteed that someone would think of that possibility.

The heart of the problem though is that the encounter is basically roll 7 times, if one roll fails then a nuke goes off and everyone dies - a recipe for tension but not necessarily the good kind, as it wouldn't be about clever strategy or creativity, but flat out dice rolls. I could lower the difficulty but then we'd be in a situation where the encounter can't be lost, which seems rather unexciting.

I definitely don't think I want to run the encounter as written; I'd either have Zubov not set off the bomb whilst he is on the train, OR, change the encounter so that it continues to be a 'disarm the bomb on the train' encounter, but instead of a failure being terminal, have a flat DC for each check instead of escalating, and a failure on each type of ingredient resulting in some sort of penalty (splash damage, lowering the time limit, increasing the difficulty on the next check, etc.). Hitting the time limit would still result in a catastrophic explosion, but the party could decide whether they themselves want to bottle it, or try for those final checks.

In the past I ended a campaign with a failed bomb disarm roll , 50 megatons is a TPK. However that was the end of the campaign anyway and total failure can be an interesting end , I would be inclinded not to TPK the party at this point of the Zeitggeist campaign. However I make use of the Hero points(or whatever they are called) from I think the Advanced players guide which help with that as it gives rerolls , bonuses and the ability to not die which I find useful in general to protect pc's from bad dice rolls.

Flat DC makes no difference either you set it so low they can't fail or it's 6 chances to make the save or die, different consequence would change things as would allowing out of the box solutions. Drilling holes to drain the reservoirs, eladrin trying to teleport one of the cylinders away, having a fey contact get a gremlin to wreck the bomb or having a giant bat fly the thing out to sea. I always give out of the box solutions a chance unless they are really stupid

I did notice your actual pc has a total in my predicted range , MW Tools are another common bonus I forgot . The biggest risk is that as this is not a dungeon crawl /trap heavy campaign you may not have a PC with disable device at all.

Having just looked over the encounter again I have a horrible suspicion the bomb will not get armed in my campaign, the terrorists lack perception and I suspect very stealthy and possibly invisible constables will reach the bomb and prevent it being armed at the start of their attack

Stansfield is around and even though he has no desire to help if there is no other option to get himself out he can disarm the bomb as his skills are more than up to it , and sudden revelation of abilities may make the pc's suspicious of him which could be interesting

Stanfield also has the advantage of his race. He can sacrifice himself "for the city" and come back a month later.

I did have some other thoughts.

1) It seems the bomb requires careful mixing of the humours to achieve maximum effect so if you catch it early you could just smash it from a distance and the mixing would cause a nasty mess but not the full explosion( similar methods work for Nukes)

2) The bomb is an alchemical weapon so if disable device is not a thing for your group you could make craft alchemy the skill used which may be a strong point for a group with an alchemist.

3) In many of the scenarios there are moments where certain characters get to shine often based around the backgrounds this is a scene for the technologist to shine so perhaps if your group does not have someone who is a technologist or could fit that role then you could make this a chance for another PC to shine. A veteran could find an army bomb disposal expert he knows to do the hard work, a Stargazer may be able to use the planar correspondances of the humours to find a way to disable the bomb there are probably ways for other specialities to shine. Pick a PC who needs a chance to look good

4) You could probably customise the consequences of failure to which humour they are working on (slow/haste effects for the time one, Ice damage for the ice one etc) this could also cut down the number of roles needed if you disable a few of the humours then the bomb will stop getting more dangerous , it will still explode but at much reduced effect.

I suspect Stanfield would rather not be dead at this time , he has a lot to keep track of and being dead could lead to loose ends leading to the Ob cropping up which otherwise he could have buried , so I expect him to disarm the bomb or escape at the last minute if no one can manage a convenient rescue

(apologies for not responding, I am reading and appreciating all of this. The last few days have been pretty hectic as I'm in the process of moving, but I am meaning to come back to this!)

Thanks again for all the input on this, it has been really appreciated!

Here is what I got so far for Tuesday.


Encounter:
26 minutes on the clock, from when the encounter starts.
Fully analysing the situation takes 2 minutes, and requires a Disable Device or Knowledge[Arcana] check of DC27. That will identify that the eight components. This makes deactivating the components in a particular order more involved and more interesting. It also gives the party an opportunity to just subdue the bomb - the terrorits need all the components, so taking just a couple out of the equation might do the trick instead.

Deactivating each component requires a Disable Device DC23, much harder than in the book but less fatal. Each check takes 1 minute; if assisted it takes 2 but gets an extra +2 to the roll (two people have a better chance, but tend to get in the way and take longer). Celawyn's DD is 13, so with a likely +4 to the roll from buffs and being aided, he should be fine most of the time, but likely to fail a few.

Should an explosion happen, everyone near the bomb gets a DC20 Reflex save to get out of dodge; any failures get 15d6 worth of damage. The party Slayer would probably be fine, this is more a risk to the wizard in the party who will no doubt look to help.

If, at 4 minutes left on the clock, the bomb is still active, at that point Stansfield will volunteer to risk his life in stopping the bomb and advise the constables to jump off the train and leave it to him. Thanks both for the suggestions with Stansfield - I like the idea of him being a little heroic at this juncture, it draws the attention to him without a big sign saying 'I'm Obscurati'. He is just being cool.


* Fire Humor. Refined trait in sentient beings that motivates activity and emotion. Acts as trigger.
Failure: Triggers bomb in whatever stage (an easy knowledge roll determines this).
Success: No longer can trigger, bomb deactivated but dangerous.

* Aether. That which fills vacuum. Massively expands size of explosion.
Failure: 6d6 force damage. 2d6 further force damage for each further substance interacted with.
Success: Size of explosion will be significantly reduced and would be contained within the train, but may cause unexpected structural damage to the tunnel and above.

* Phlogiston. Pure elemental fire in liquid form. The actual destructive agent of the explosion.
Failure: 6d6 fire damage. 2d6 further fire damage for each further substance interacted with.
Success: Significantly reduced destructive force, but other components could still cause mass death.

* Frayed Chronosomia. Fluid time which, when poured, extrudes in the shape of woven threads. This unstable version makes the explosion difficult to detect with foresight and divination.
Failure: Each further substance takes twice as long to disconnect.
Success: Nothing of importance.

* Witchoil. Black essence of the barrier between this world and the Bleak Gate. An accelerant that starts the reaction.
Failure: 6d6 negative damage. Half time left.
Success: Add 5 minutes to the clock - enough for the train to pass by the intended target at least.

* Blood Infused with Ambergris. The calming agent that prevents premature detonation.
Success or Failure: Half time left. This doesn't sound like something you want to play with when trying to stop the explosion!

* Serpent’s Loop. Scales of snakes that have devoured themselves, boiled in venom. Makes the fire burn any substance, even stone.
Failure: 6d6 acid damage. 2d6 further acid damage for each further substance interacted with.
Success: Less explosive as the flames wouldn't be able to carve through the stone.

* Frostburn. Transmuted phlogiston that freezes instead of burns. Will coat everything burnt by the explosion with a layer of ice.
Failure: 6d6 cold damage. 2d6 further cold damage for each further substance interacted with.
Success: Less.... icy?


Thoughts? Improvements?

I would probably have Chrosomia explosion function as a slow spell in general. Probably not important but if a pc starts bomb disarming while there are still terrorists around it could matter.
For the bomb detonation I would say that it counts as acid/Frost/Fire damage so effectivly a third of the damage is each type which makes elemental protections more difficult at this level and if the serpents loop is still included the acid and fire damage ignore all hardness (really helps explain destruction of inanimate objects as normally hardness is boosted vs elemental damage) and the first 10 points of elemental resistance, not that hopefully this will matter but I find players like to know how horrible the fate they avoided was. Perhaps while the Aether is included Evasion won't work?

Anyway it seems you have a version you are happy with and I'll keep this in mind when my group gets there which won't be for a while