A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Sadras · Apr 4, 2019

Maxperson said:
Modules are a really poor example, as you generally don't have to make much in the way of changes regardless of edition.

I agree with this sentiment.

It doesn't matter, though. 5e is not 4e. Most of the issues I had with 4e are gone,

Yes, arguably because the lego mechanics in 5e are easier to move about, twist and even remove altogether without ruining the core system.

though I am struggling with the adventuring day problem. I don't like it one bit. Right now I've switched to making a long rest a week so that I don't have to provide a ridiculous number of encounters in a single day in order to challenge the PCs, but I'm not sure this will work, either, and if it doesn't I don't know what to do as the "adventuring day" is so ingrained.

Yes, this is issue no 1 with 5e, IMO. You need a refresh system that is tailored to your adventures, that caters for faster/slower pacing, works in the various environments (city, wilderness* and dungeon), aligns with the level of magic in your setting and doesn't conflict with your internal consistency.
Once you find something that works for your table, life it good.

*Particularly doesn't undermine travel and environmental factors.

Maxperson · Apr 4, 2019

Sadras said:
Yes, arguably because the lego mechanics in 5e are easier to move about, twist and even remove altogether without ruining the core system.

Which is huge. When I realized that I would basically have to re-write 4e to make it playable for me and my group, I gave up on it. With 5e I can just change what I don't like and move on.

Hussar · Apr 4, 2019

Maxperson said:
Modules are a really poor example, as you generally don't have to make much in the way of changes regardless of edition. I routinely ran 1e and 2e modules for my 3e game. Modules are mostly just story. Swapping monsters out for the current edition is simple. The same with traps. NPCs are the most work, but it's not hard to redo them with the current rules set.

Stats are more same than different. Dex still gives bonuses to AC and initiative. Con gives bonuses to hit points. Strength to hit, damage and determines what you can carry. They are the same six stats. Further, I note you didn't try to compare wizards or clerics, who are closer to their 2e versions with memorizing spells.

It doesn't matter, though. 5e is not 4e. Most of the issues I had with 4e are gone, though I am struggling with the adventuring day problem. I don't like it one bit. Right now I've switched to making a long rest a week so that I don't have to provide a ridiculous number of encounters in a single day in order to challenge the PCs, but I'm not sure this will work, either, and if it doesn't I don't know what to do as the "adventuring day" is so ingrained.

Err what? While they might give bonuses, the point where they grant bonuses and the amount of bonuses are entirely different.

ANd, no, clerics and wizards are nothing like a 2e cleric or wizard. Not even a little. No more Vancian casting, both clerics and wizards are now sorcerers. No more random spell book. No more spheres. Completely different spell list and the way spells work is completely different. No more scaling spells with character level, for one. No more bonus daily slots for wisdom for a cleric. Oh, and wisdom no longer grants a bonus saving throw vs magic. And Int doesn't grant multiple languages/non-weapon proficiencies.

Good grief, did you even play 2e?

Numidius · Apr 4, 2019

[MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION], now what are page 42 and residuum??

(Becmi, a bit of Ad&d and 3e, here, long time ago)

Numidius · Apr 4, 2019

[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], why do you think the weekly long rests won't be enough to solve the adv day problem?

Satyrn · Apr 4, 2019

Numidius said:
@Sadras, now what are page 42 and residuum??

(Becmi, a bit of Ad&d and 3e, here, long time ago)

Page 42 of the 4e DMG contained concise advice on how to improv a threat, suggesting how much damage a trap/environment effect/etc ought to do, how to assign a saving they're and the like, based on the party's level and how dangerous you want it to be. Something like that, anyway.

Residuum is a magical material, the primary component of magical items. The players could break down a magic item they didn't want, collect the residuum from it and then craft a new item they did want. It essentially filled the same role as buying and selling items in 3e.

Satyrn · Apr 4, 2019

Numidius said:
[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], why do you think the weekly long rests won't be enough to solve the adv day problem?

Also, Max, if it doesn't quite work, but comes close, you might consider my change: Unlike the standard rules, the players have to spend hit dice to heal during a long rest, too. I let them do this after they gain back the hit dice from the long rest.

Ovinomancer · Apr 4, 2019

Maxperson said:
If he was in armor and armed with the appropriate skill with his weapon, it would be equal to the unarmed skill difference during that football game. 6 armed orcs are nothing to a high level fighter. 6 grappling orcs can take the fighter down. That was the point.

So, your friend doing nothing to fight off the kids and just trying to run is the same as an armed and armored warrior fighting fir their life because you just can't stop thise pesky kids/orcs if they decide to grapple?

This is actually meant as a serious argument? I suppose that it's a more "realistic" rule because you knew a guy when you were 20 who got tackled by 5 3ir 6 kids that one time in a friendly football game?

AbdulAlhazred · Apr 5, 2019

Maxperson said:
Shhh!! Don't clue him in. He's busy mocking me with his superior knowledge.

Its funny, because WotC/Mearls is right in some sense when they say that 5e isn't "that much different from 4e" and "borrows heavily from 4e." In some sense this really is true. Yet at the same time its a totally different game. The same could have been said of 3e and 4e, they really are not much more different than 5e is from 4e (maybe a bit, but not vastly different). Again, they are entirely different games with different agendas.

AbdulAlhazred · Apr 5, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
Wut. Your example of how grappling is just better than melee is a bunch of kids clinging to your friend who isn't trying to stop them at all. And, somehow, this is obviously more effective at stopping your friend than if they all just threw rocks or came at him with spears?

It actually isn't all that relevant whether mass tackling or armed attacks would be more effective IN REALITY. All that is germane is that D&D is a game of epic fantasy in which armed warriors fight monsters with swords, etc. and wizards wield magic. You can have some unarmed combat, it might even be a pretty significant part of something like OA, but when packs of orcs can drag down 9th level fighters and pummel them senseless while they're prone, that sort of doesn't work to the tone of the game very well!

I seriously doubt that was Gary's intention, he just seems to have been constitutionally incapable of creating a set of general rules within a framework. Doing so would have made unarmed combat relatively trivial. It works fine in 4e for instance, and implementing martial arts in that system didn't even stretch the original paradigm really. Monks and Brawlers both work fine. It could be done in 1e as well, though not quite as easily since its combat system is more brittle.