Should Insight be able to determine if an NPC is lying?

Hriston · Apr 8, 2019

You make an effort to glean clues from a creature's body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms in an attempt to search out a lie. If the outcome of that effort is uncertain and there's a meaningful consequence for failure, make a Wisdom check. If you're proficient in Insight, add your proficiency bonus to the check.

Satyrn · Apr 8, 2019

Yes.

But I might be lying. You'll have to successfully Insight this post to know for sure.

S'mon · Apr 8, 2019

Pretty much yes.

It seems harder to determine when an NPC is telling the truth.

Yaarel · Apr 9, 2019

I didnt answer the poll, because dont think there is a YES/NO answer.

The Wisdom Insight skill can reveal the MOTIVATIONS for saying something (fear, belief, defensiveness, helpfulness, etcetera). But whether the thing said remains true or not, remains unknown. Especially if the speaker happens to honestly assume that something false is true.

Really, to determine whether a statement is factual or not, would require the INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATION skill.

Yaarel · Apr 9, 2019

This is one of the many reasons to eliminate the Wisdom attribute from the D&D gaming system.

• Give Perception to Intelligence.
• Give Insight and Willpower saves to Charisma.

Done. Without Wisdom, everything works clearer and better.

All that one needs to play the mental aspects of D&D well is Intelligence and Charisma.

Yaarel said:
I didnt answer the poll, because dont think there is a YES/NO answer.

The Wisdom Insight skill can reveal the MOTIVATIONS for saying something (fear, belief, defensiveness, helpfulness, etcetera). But whether the thing said remains true or not, remains unknown. Especially if the speaker happens to honestly assume that something false is true.

Really, to determine whether a statement is factual or not, would require the INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATION skill.

Mort · Apr 9, 2019

Yaarel said:
I didnt answer the poll, because dont think there is a YES/NO answer.

The Wisdom Insight skill can reveal the MOTIVATIONS for saying something (fear, belief, defensiveness, helpfulness, etcetera). But whether the thing said remains true or not, remains unknown. Especially if the speaker happens to honestly assume that something false is true..

Is the motivation to deceive?

If the speaker believes something false is true and says that something, he's not lying he's simply mistaken.

Yaarel said:
Really, to determine whether a statement is factual or not, would require the INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATION skill.

Here you're not trying to determine if something is factual, your trying to determine if the person speaking is lying.

Yaarel · Apr 9, 2019

Same thing goes with forgeries, such as fake documents or fake signatures.

A person has to be Intelligent, and normally a highly educated specialist, to recognize a forgery.

It certainly requires education to successfully produce a forgery.

The creation and detection of forgeries should be Intelligence Investigation checks.

Similarly, to invent a plausible, consistent, lie that can survive scrutiny requires Intelligence.

Charlaquin · Apr 9, 2019

I had a difficult time deciding how to vote here. I went with “no,” because the way I run the game, you can’t just say “I want to know if this person is lying,” roll Insight, and get a straight yes or no, which I think was the intent of the question. That said, helping one to determine if an NPC one is interacting with is being honest is one of the primary uses of the Insight skill, and a player who wants to reliably be able to tell when they are being lied to would do well to train in Insight in my games.

Yaarel · Apr 9, 2019

Mort said:
Is the motivation to deceive?

If the speaker believes something false is true and says that something, he's not lying he's simply mistaken.

Here you're not trying to determine if something is factual, your trying to determine if the person speaking is lying.

To ‘deceive’ is a tactic. Not a motivation.

Why is the person trying to deceive? That is where the motivation is.

It is just as easy to tell the truth to get whatever one wants. Especially half truths.

Yaarel · Apr 9, 2019

Charlaquin said:
I had a difficult time deciding how to vote here. I went with “no,” because the way I run the game, you can’t just say “I want to know if this person is lying,” roll Insight, and get a straight yes or no, which I think was the intent of the question. That said, helping one to determine if an NPC one is interacting with is being honest is one of the primary uses of the Insight skill, and a player who wants to reliably be able to tell when they are being lied to would do well to train in Insight in my games.

I like what you wrote. Especially being unable to determine YES/NO if someone is lying.

Along these lines, I dont think, one can simply know if someone is being ‘honest’. Even a villain can be telling the truth because it serves the villains purpose.

I do think Insight can determine if someone is trying to be helpful or unhelpful − in other words, friendly or hostile. And that kind of emotional information can help the players decide whether to rely on whatever is being said.

Other than that, fact-checking is Intelligence and research. Theres no way around that.

Should Insight be able to determine if an NPC is lying?

Should Insight be able to determine if an NPC is lying?

Yes

No

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth

Satyrn

First Post

S'mon

Legend

Yaarel

He Mage

Yaarel

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Mort

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Yaarel

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Yaarel

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