D&D 5E Wizards (et al.) Casting Known Spells?

I have to agree: mechanics and everything else aside, the idea of spell preparation is pretty central to my concept of the wizard class.

dnd4vr said:

Oh, there are still reasons to play Wizards and Clerics (and even Druids ). First, you'll notice those spellcasters get more known spells (not a lot at first, but quite a bit more later on). As I mentioned as an option, Ritual spells could be automatically known and used maybe (at least for Wizards). I was also considering granting more uses of Channel Divinity and likewise with Druid class features.

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Less than 1 spell per spell level over bards, and half that over clerics and druids is hardly what I would call "quite a bit."

In our group the versatility of these classes is nothing compared to the delay in time it takes when players pour over their spell lists trying to decide what to take for the day. 90% of the time, nothing changes, except maybe a few spells as Greenstone.Walker mentions, and several minutes or longer of precious game time is wasted.

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Then 90% of the time there should be no delay. Most of the remaining 10% should also be no delay as they should know their spells and be thinking about what to switch out while watches are being taken and other things being described. The length of time it takes me to tell a DM I made changes is a few seconds on average.

Edit: I'm also not sure why you gimped Sorcerers that badly. Warlocks are a spell light class. Sorcerers aren't and you removed 1/3 of their spells.

In my two current Eberron campaigns I've turned every long-rest spellcasting class into a 'Known Spells' caster, and they all run with the same spell slot table, Spells Known, and Cantrips Known (except for isolated changes here and there-- Sorcerer gains an extra Cantrip over the others for example). And the three primary casters who normally are Prepared but now aren't (cleric, druid, wizard)... the Cleric and Land Druids get to add their domain/land spells to their Spells Known, and Wizards still have a ritual book that they use to collect any Rituals they come across in scrolls or other spellbooks (although any rituals in their book that aren't also a Known Spell for them can only be cast as a 10-minute ritual.)

Thus far there have not been any issues. And for those that are wondering about the wizard versus sorcerer thing-- in my Eberron campaigns sorcerers are only dragonmarked characters who focus on their dragonmark magic, and thus they have specialized spell lists they have to use per dragonmark and have story compels that keep them balanced against wizards.

Maxperson said:

Less than 1 spell per spell level over bards, and half that over clerics and druids is hardly what I would call "quite a bit."

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Well, compared to Sorcerers and Warlocks, Wizards eventually would know twice as many spells (30 vs only 15), and more than 35% more than Bards. Clerics and Druids have more "extra" features so would receive more spells than Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks, but not quite as many as Wizards. Even clerics and druids have an spell known edge over Bards, and a significant on over Sorcerers and Warlocks at higher levels. I would call those percentages "quite a bit", yes.

Maxperson said:

Then 90% of the time there should be no delay. Most of the remaining 10% should also be no delay as they should know their spells and be thinking about what to switch out while watches are being taken and other things being described. The length of time it takes me to tell a DM I made changes is a few seconds on average.

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The delay is still there. That is the annoying part. The time is wasted wondering what spells to swap out, and the vast majority of the time there are very minor or no changes made. It takes several minutes since the players discuss "What spells should my Wizard or Cleric take today?" If the changes were significant or actually played a role in the game I would be more understanding of it, but frankly that isn't what happens at our table anyway.

Maxperson said:

Edit: I'm also not sure why you gimped Sorcerers that badly. Warlocks are a spell light class. Sorcerers aren't and you removed 1/3 of their spells.

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I'm not sure what you're talking about, I didn't change Sorcerers at all. They cap out at 15 known spells in the PHB.

As to the other comments, like any changes at our table we will discuss it and test it on a trial basis. If it works we keep it and if not, we go back to the RAW. Some of our changes have worked out great and we've kept them (like using average damage). I appreciate the warnings but all those have been considered, which is why I am not asking about possible pitfalls, but other options that would quicken the process of selecting prepared spells or remove it altogether.

Like one idea I had last night was maybe limited the spell swapping. Something like one spell per short rest, three over a long rest, or some combination not to exceed three?

DEFCON 1 said:

In my two current Eberron campaigns I've turned every long-rest spellcasting class into a 'Known Spells' caster, and they all run with the same spell slot table, Spells Known, and Cantrips Known (except for isolated changes here and there-- Sorcerer gains an extra Cantrip over the others for example). And the three primary casters who normally are Prepared but now aren't (cleric, druid, wizard)... the Cleric and Land Druids get to add their domain/land spells to their Spells Known, and Wizards still have a ritual book that they use to collect any Rituals they come across in scrolls or other spellbooks (although any rituals in their book that aren't also a Known Spell for them can only be cast as a 10-minute ritual.)

Thus far there have not been any issues. And for those that are wondering about the wizard versus sorcerer thing-- in my Eberron campaigns sorcerers are only dragonmarked characters who focus on their dragonmark magic, and thus they have specialized spell lists they have to use per dragonmark and have story compels that keep them balanced against wizards.

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Cool. Thanks for your input and experiences in doing something like what we are considering. I was already planning on working ritual spells into Wizards somehow and the idea about domain spells for cleric and druids works well I would think.

I too had considered a "everyone is a spontaneous casters" for a while (except for the wizard; spell preparation was their thing). For me,this was meant for young and new players; this way they wouldn't feel pressured to know each and every spell to make a judicious choice. It just didn't turned out to be necessary in the end.

I would have given the bard's progression to cleric and druid, and half of the bard's progression to the paladin similarly to how the ranger gets half of the sorcerer's progression. With bonus spells from divine domain and sacred oath (and land druid), that came to a manageable yet flexible repertoire.

Alternatively, make changing your list of prepared spells a downtime activity (1 week) requiring research, pilgrimage, special prayers, offerings, eclipse, new/full moon, alignment of planets/planes etc.

With everyone a spontaneous caster, a bonus spell known makes a nice treasure/reward at the end of a thematically appropriate quest.

dnd4vr said:

...several minutes or longer of precious game time is wasted.

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Why do you feel this time is a waste, as opposed to "a fun part of the game."? Are the players of those wizards and clerics complaining?

The only hard part, from a design perspective, is how to balance the number of spells that a wizard can know in order to maintain their role as knowing a lot of spells - but without overwhelming the player, or slowing down gameplay, by giving them access to all of those spells at once. Presumably, they would end up knowing a few more spells than the base rules would allow them to prepare.

Personally, I consider this to be one of the many design flaws of 5E, which is why I moved all spellcasters onto the sorcerer model when I did my big re-working of the edition.

At the OP

If you don't like spell prep simply playing in campaigns that ban spell prep classes is also a solution. I've played many and they run fine. No class is needed.

DEFCON 1 said:

In my two current Eberron campaigns I've turned every long-rest spellcasting class into a 'Known Spells' caster, and they all run with the same spell slot table, Spells Known, and Cantrips Known (except for isolated changes here and there-- Sorcerer gains an extra Cantrip over the others for example). And the three primary casters who normally are Prepared but now aren't (cleric, druid, wizard)... the Cleric and Land Druids get to add their domain/land spells to their Spells Known, and Wizards still have a ritual book that they use to collect any Rituals they come across in scrolls or other spellbooks (although any rituals in their book that aren't also a Known Spell for them can only be cast as a 10-minute ritual.)

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This is pretty much what I was thinking when I was looking at the OP. Wizards swapping spells is largely situational and minor, domains included in spells known makes the loss of swapping a minor inconvenience, and druids tend to be druids for shape-shifting while land druids add circle spells.

Giving the wizard class a free ritual caster feat for the book was my first thought but I would probably work out a table to add rituals to it for free. The wizard ritual casting mechanic makes it easy to have several rituals under standard rules so a freebie every third level or so makes sense.

I would probably give clerics and druids the same free ritual book but not the free rituals. Not being able to swap in rituals reactively can impact them.

I think that's all it takes to balance out giving up spell prep versatility on these classes.

Ashrym said:

At the OP

If you don't like spell prep simply playing in campaigns that ban spell prep classes is also a solution. I've played many and they run fine. No class is needed.

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That would leave the ranger as the only divine caster, getting rid of wizard, druid, paladin, and cleric, making the bard the main healer and the warlock the most priestly-type character. A whole lot of spells would exist as magical secrets for bard only, although the divine soul sorcerer technically covers all of the cleric spells.

that would be a very cool campaign premise, but a clear departure from the base assumptions of a typical D&D game.