D&D 5E Berserker Barbarians: Wait what?

Xeviat · Jun 12, 2019

I feel like I'm super late to the party. Berserker barbarian frenzy has always bugged me in that it is functionally a once per day thing unless you want to hurt yourself for days (or you have a caster who can clean up fatigue). But, just today, I noticed a combo for Frenzy built right into the class.

At 3rd level you get frenzy. It says "When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion."

At 15th level, you get Persistent Rage, and your rage only "ends early if you fall unconscious or you choose to end it".

So, at 15th level, the Berserker barbarian basically gets a two-handed weapon attack as a bonus action every round basically for free, until they're knocked unconscious or have to sleep.

So, could an elf barbarian or someone else with no sleep requirements rage forever and never get that fatigue?

Adamant · Jun 12, 2019

Persistent rage doesn't remove the 1 minute cap on rage, so you are still limited by that. Even at level 20 with unlimited rage you still end one when you override it with a new rage, so you still get exhaustion.

Xeviat · Jun 12, 2019

Adamant said:
Persistent rage doesn't remove the 1 minute cap on rage, so you are still limited by that. Even at level 20 with unlimited rage you still end one when you override it with a new rage, so you still get exhaustion.

There we go! Thanks for correcting that. Now to go back to hating on the Berserker.

jgsugden · Jun 12, 2019

Something I do not get about the berserker hate and totem love:

People say you only get to use frenzy once per LR (maybe twice if at the end of an adventure). However, the Totem damage resistance only matters if you'd have gone done without it ... and my frenzied barbarian (14th berserker / 4th champion at retirement) didn't have it and *never* went down. The enhanced resistance of the totem is used often - but how often is it meaningful? Not in one combat per LR, certainly.

That PC was fun, it was effective, and I regret nothing. The DM was worried that I was overpowered, in fact, despite having the least 'popular' barbarian and fighter builds.

Mort · Jun 12, 2019

jgsugden said:
Something I do not get about the berserker hate and totem love:

People say you only get to use frenzy once per LR (maybe twice if at the end of an adventure). However, the Totem damage resistance only matters if you'd have gone done without it ... and my frenzied barbarian (14th berserker / 4th champion at retirement) didn't have it and *never* went down. The enhanced resistance of the totem is used often - but how often is it meaningful? Not in one combat per LR, certainly.

People often focus on the bear totem (which grants the extra resistance), but totem barbarian can be more versatile than that.

Instead of bear, take the wolf totem - Grant automatic advantage against any enemy you're within 5' of (when you're raging). In many parties that's just nasty. Or if you get to the level you got to (14+) you're character grants advantage and any enemy he's standing next to has disadvantage against anyone but him. And none of the punitive exhaustion.

And it really does seem arbitrarily punitive, especially when you consider that a feat (polearm master) grants nearly the same benefit (a bit less damage) at nowhere near the cost. Heck, as zealot barbarian with polearm master is going to nearly equal the damage and some of it is a good damage type (radiant or necrotic).

jgsugden said:
That PC was fun, it was effective, and I regret nothing. The DM was worried that I was overpowered, in fact, despite having the least 'popular' barbarian and fighter builds.

At the end of the day, fun and effective is what matters, so that's great.

The Crimson Binome · Jun 12, 2019

jgsugden said:
People say you only get to use frenzy once per LR (maybe twice if at the end of an adventure). However, the Totem damage resistance only matters if you'd have gone done without it ... and my frenzied barbarian (14th berserker / 4th champion at retirement) didn't have it and *never* went down.

You also have to consider the resource expenditure to bring yourself back up to full, after the fight. Totem barbarians need fewer potions and cure spells, when things get rough. Berserkers are the cleric's worst friend.

Unless you have few enough fights in a day that you can keep everyone topped off without resources, of course, but that's another matter entirely.

jgsugden · Jun 12, 2019

We had a bard and a paladin. No cleric. No greater restoration 'cheat' either.

Healing was no problem for me. I was not always fully healed, but I never ran out of HPs.

Hawk Diesel · Jun 12, 2019

I am really against the Frenzy ability of the Path of the Berserker. To my knowledge, it is the only ability that results in a detrimental effect in addition to resource expenditure. The only other mechanic that I'm aware of is Haste, but even that only lasts one round after the spell ends.

I understand that the ability to make an attack as a bonus action, regardless of the weapon, is a powerful ability. But it should still function mechanically like every other ability. Either it is limited by resource expenditure, action economy, or both.

Additionally, Barbarians are already limited in what they can accomplish in the exploration and social pillars of the game (unless those things involve feats of strength). Just one use of Frenzy guarantees that your barbarian character is even worse at those things, making them even more one dimensional as well as a potential detriment to the group.

Oh, you guys need to sneak past those guards because you're too injured from the previous fight? Well, it's just too bad that Gronk has a level of exhaustion because he used Frenzy. With disadvantage he failed his stealth check.

Oh, Gronk wants to try and intimidate that crony that just witnessed him cleave a dude in two while frenzying? Well that's gonna be tough with disadvantage on your check from that level of exhaustion (in addition to Charisma being his dump stat).

Oh no! Gronk needed to frenzy twice! Now the entire group is slowed to a crawl since Gronk can only move half his speed. Even with his fast movement, he's slower than a gnome!

NO GRONK! Why did you frenzy again?! Now you aren't even good at the one thing you're supposed to be good at, because you now have THREE levels of exhaustion! You aren't gonna hit squat with disadvantage on attack rolls, who cares if you get a whole extra attack with a bonus action.

Truly, I just don't see the logic in this kind of game design.

Zardnaar · Jun 12, 2019

It means you should be conservative with your frenzy.

If someone is a frenzy barbarian and I'm a cleric they might want to take the healer feat as if they want to be a moron and throw away their hit points and soak up exhaustion I have better thing to do than heal them.

Immoralkickass · Jun 12, 2019

I think the main problem is with the Exhaustion mechanics. Racking up Exhaustion stacks is one thing, getting rid of them is another. Trying to wipe out 3 stacks of Exhaustion without the help of magic is going to take 3 long rests, and Gronk may not have that much time. At this point, Gronk might as well be playing the gritty long rest rules that only apply to himself, because he is going to look like an obese man trying to keep up with a bunch of Olympians.