D&D (2024) How to fix Path of the Berserker of the Barbarian?

[Incenjucar]

Letting them recover exactly one exhaustion during a short rest if they use the ability a number of times/day equal to 1/2 their proficiency bonus could help. Lets them use it a bit safely while not letting them spam it.

 

[Marandahir]

Definitely remove the random Charisma rider. Either focus on Charisma features (scaring enemies or else inspiring allies, i.e. 4e Thaneborn) as the subclass' highlight or don't use them at all.

 

[Lycurgon]

I think with the new exhaustion rules the only thing I would change is make it so the ignore the exhaustion penalty while frenzying.

 

[Gorck]

Definitely remove the random Charisma rider. Either focus on Charisma features (scaring enemies or else inspiring allies, i.e. 4e Thaneborn) as the subclass' highlight or don't use them at all.

If you're talking about Intimidating Presence, I let my players use Strength for that since there's an optional rule to allow players to use Strength for the Intimidation skill rather than Charisma.

 

[Marandahir]

If you're talking about Intimidating Presence, I let my players use Strength for that since there's an optional rule to allow players to use Strength for the Intimidation skill rather than Charisma.

Right. But that should be baked into the subclass feature, to avoid MAD. It's the ONLY reason, mechanically, that a Berserker wants to invest in Cha, and it comes relatively late.

 

[Charlaquin]

I’m gonna go against the grain and say I don’t think the changes to Exhaustion actually fix the Berserker. Sure new exhaustion is less punishing, but it’s still too steep a cost for Frenzy in my opinion. The Berserker would be perfectly fair (if a bit bland) even if Frenzy could be used every time you rage with no drawback. The bigger problem though is that Frenzy is a boring feature but takes up the majority of the subclass’s design space.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I’m gonna go against the grain and say I don’t think the changes to Exhaustion actually fix the Berserker. Sure new exhaustion is less punishing, but it’s still too steep a cost for Frenzy in my opinion.

That's interesting. I think I preferred the old (well, current) model, because I almost never went above one level of exhaustion, and I'd rather have disadvantage on ability checks that -1 to those plus saving throws and attack rolls.

The Berserker would be perfectly fair (if a bit bland) even if Frenzy could be used every time you rage with no drawback. The bigger problem though is that Frenzy is a boring feature but takes up the majority of the subclass’s design space.

That's also interesting. I've always really enjoyed the bonus attack...it's satisfying to do all that extra damage...but it's also true that it doesn't actually change gameplay or decision-making. You just do more of what you already do.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I’m gonna go against the grain and say I don’t think the changes to Exhaustion actually fix the Berserker. Sure new exhaustion is less punishing, but it’s still too steep a cost for Frenzy in my opinion. The Berserker would be perfectly fair (if a bit bland) even if Frenzy could be used every time you rage with no drawback. The bigger problem though is that Frenzy is a boring feature but takes up the majority of the subclass’s design space.

Fundamentally, what I dislike is that it pushes the ability to be a 'no more than once a day (and none at all if you run into another exhaustion event that day)' effect. That seems to go against the design ethos I think I see in the rest of the rules where they want people to use their abilities*. It also means that the cost of this changes wildly once you have clerics who might end the day with one or more level 5 slots** left, and also means any racial or class ability which reduces or makes one immune to exhaustion has amazing synergy with this subclass (and may not be being added to the game specifically because of this).
*even if they should hold some in reserve for more encounters per day than most people consider regularly doable
**which are an expensive cost, to be sure, but that there's this much change in cost at level 9-ish makes it really janky to consider balance for the ability

Personally, I wouldn't mind if it has a specific per-day limit (once again, PB/LR I suppose) or the like. Either way, I agree with the last assertion about being boring but powerful enough (if exhaustion is not included) to not to allow much else in-class.

 

[Charlaquin]

That's interesting. I think I preferred the old (well, current) model, because I almost never went above one level of exhaustion, and I'd rather have disadvantage on ability checks that -1 to those plus saving throws and attack rolls.

I agree, but there’s also the psychological effect to consider. Current exhaustion scares players more than it should, because each level is one step closer to straight-up death. And because it’s very difficult to remove except by taking a short rest.

That's also interesting. I've always really enjoyed the bonus attack...it's satisfying to do all that extra damage...but it's also true that it doesn't actually change gameplay or decision-making. You just do more of what you already do.

And to be fair, there’s good value in having at least one subclass that’s “just more of what you already do” for the players who want the simplest, easiest to play version of any given class. But the cost/benefit analysis involved in deciding whether or not to Frenzy kinda puts a damper on that. If it was just a free bonus whenever you raged, it would be less interesting, but at least it would fill the equivalent role of the Champion for barbarians.

I’ve actually played a Berserker Barbarian that could basically Frenzy for free. It was in a Primeval Thule campaign, and there was a Feat in the book for that setting that basically gave you two free levels of exhaustion (your first two levels had no effect, and any levels after that progressed starting from the level 1 effect). So I was pretty much able to Frenzy every time I raged, which was also pretty much every combat since the DM was a fan of using only a few deadly encounters per day. That character’s DPR was certainly respectable, but it wasn’t anything that crazy, and the character ended up pretty boring to play, at least in combat.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Slightly off-topic, but I was just reading the thread about One causing a divide, in which a poster made a mocking comment about how the 5e philosophy is “give players what they want.” It’s a pretty common sentiment.

I can’t remember who posts what, but I’d be kind of curious to see the Venn diagram between “5e caters to casuals” and “Frenzy is too punitive.”