Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?

wakedown

Explorer
I suspect PF2e has some internal design goals that aren't intended to be made public.

Their business model really requires addiction level subscribers to commit to the year-plus subscription model and the predictable revenue of 5000-15,000 gamers parting with $50 a month or ~$600-1000 of annual spend to sustain the business.

So really Paizo's design goal would be to lock down their 5,000 most loyal customers who are heavily vested in the game world and community (particularly VLs/VCs of Organized Play) to commit to at least invest in the new system for 2-3 years out at $1000/year - there's a guarantee of $5M in revenue to cover the administrative expenses and core team expenses. Then hopefully your core 5K can attract an outer ring of another 5K-10K gamers who are good for $300-$600 a piece.

Paizo's hardcore gamer, the ones who are still showing up to game store game days are the ones who like to play with rules "away from the game" for hours per week, building complex characters from an assortment of rules from esoteric sources. They're almost puzzle-solvers to a certain extent, trying to maximize character builds. The whole 3-action round gives another puzzle to solve where theorycrafting away from the game lets folks figure out the right combination of their open, press, flourish, etc. The whole tiered crit systems presents another dimension of theorycrafting where you need to understand conditions and the right pivot point of whether you attack an extra time or attempt a Power Attack. PF2e is meant to be enjoyed in Excel and spreadsheets for the next several years as mix/max theorycrafting can take place and continue to absorb supplement subscriptions.

It's not intended to be an accessible game for the casual gamer. You won't be bringing a casual friend/spouse/date to the game as there's way too much of a learning curve here to get in the way of the story or non-combat aspects of the game. This game is again about character building away from the social group, and then at the table it's about puzzle-solving your combat turns kind of like playing Tetris and trying to fit things into each turn. Whereas modern RPGs became more permissive to get folks to pay more attention to the scene and events going on (i.e. 5e lets you move and interact with things freely outside of an action economy budget then make a quick decision among many equal cost single actions), PF2e is about looking at your character sheet and trying to puzzle out the best way to spend 3 action points every time it gets around to your turn where competence is determined by how well you've memorized all the variable point costs of available actions.

It's actually kind of like Advanced 4E - take 4e and expand it into a variable cost action system and add the -10/+10 math for another dimension of variability in action results and you have PF2e.
 

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techno

Explorer
I believe Paizo is trying to create something similar to 5e, in terms of ease of learning and running it, but which also...

1. doesn't have bounded accuracy (becomes more "fantasy supers" at higher levels)
2. is directly tied into their Lost Omens/Golarian setting (which helps sell APs, their bread and butter)
3. has far more character options and choices than 5e (which allows those who really like to customize their characters to do so)
4. assumes more use of magic items than 5e (some people like this, some don't)
5. has more dynamic and interesting monsters (5e monsters can get boring after awhile)
6. has lots of continual support for additional options, adventures, and accessories (5e releases additional rules/class options at a glacial pace)
7. has more engaging tactical combat (the 3 action system is brilliant, simple, and provides lots of meaningful choices in combat)
8. has a heavy focus on exploration and downtime rules, not just combat
9. has more codified rules than 5e (some people love that 5e often just says, "It's up the GM to decide on how to do this," some like more rules consistency/clarity)
10. moves away from a binary pass/fail paradigm and allows 4 levels of success on most rolls
11. weapon choices are more meaningful and they do different things
12. makes skills and skill proficiencies more meaningful (this is one area of 5e that I don't prefer)
13. is built to be easily customizable/configurable based on preferences (they are planning to release a GM guide that tells you how to easily "tweak the dials" on the rules engine to adjust the game how you want it to be if you don't like the default settings)
14. offers all of the rules (not just the basic rules) free online as well as very cheap PDFs

My impression is that they have come up with something pretty cool with PF2. It feels more like "Advanced 5e" to me. It will get tons of continual support, for those who see this as a plus. Our group is going to check out the final version when it releases on August 1. We may switch our group to PF2 if Paizo is able to deliver on the above promises. We also love Paizo's adventures and feel they are often better than 5e's offerings. Personally, I am glad that both options are available. Competition is good for Paizo, WotC, and the consumer.
 
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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Wait, that’s an interesting idea. What ideas or rules unique to PF2 does anyone see a D&D implementing or appropriating?

Anyone?

Just about the only thing I found of value in the playtest, was the system for multuclassing, including the equivalent to Prestige Class/Kits. I could see a similar system being built into 5E easily enough, basically locking a character into a Feat chain that replaces all the ASIs with cross-Class abilities.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
The whole project reeks of a cynical attempt to restart the supplement threadmill. As far as I can tell, no one can explain what selling points of PF2 are supposed to be, in what ways it is better than PF1, what actual problems it fixes, or even what made-up problems it fixes better than existing versions of DnD. It is one of the most complicated, rules-hyperheavy RPGs I've ever read, and more of the complexity than before is upfront and unavoidable, rather than being optional (by all accounts the system wasn't reworked entirely since beta, therefore this observation will equally apply to the final product), so it cannot claim to be "streamlining" anyting. Between "are you kidding me?" levels of complexity that a new player must confront before play even starts, and the fact that it is even more self-referential than other versions of DnD, it has zero appeal to anyone who is not a hardcore DnD/PF fan. It tries to cram itself into the same weird niche of "kitchen sink high fantasy with magic galore
I'm getting a sense of deja-vu here...

… yeah, it's like it's 2003 and someone's going on about the 'cash grab' …

...which went on to command such loyalty from fans that Paizo has been selling PF1 to that base for an extra decade past it's end of life.


...so, yer say'n PF2 could be Paizo's 3.5!
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The issue was never that they used the same math. The issue is that they were too complicated to create.
People want incompatible things:
1) deep crunchy charbuild options on the player side
2) simple fast monster creation on the DM side
3) PCs and NPCs being governed by the same rules

Sorry, no can do. The only possible way to have 1+3 is what 3.x tried, and it completely killed high-level DMing for me.

Ultimately 2 is paramount, so the real choice is between 1 and 3. And my players clearly want 1. Since I the DM want (nay need) 2, the only sacrifice possible is to give up 3.

Ergo unified rules for PCs and NPCs is a pipe dream that can never happen. What's practical and simple for the DM is shallow and unsatisfying for players. What's deliciously crunchy for players is a nightmare for the DM (me).
 

Ultimately 2 is paramount, so the real choice is between 1 and 3. And my players clearly want 1. Since I the DM want (nay need) 2, the only sacrifice possible is to give up 3.
That covers your players at your table, sure, but those aren't the only players or table under discussion. Sacrificing 1 for the benefit of 3 is an equally valid solution.
 

Kurviak

Explorer
That covers your players at your table, sure, but those aren't the only players or table under discussion. Sacrificing 1 for the benefit of 3 is an equally valid solution.

But that’s not the route Paizo choose for PF2. They went with different methods for players vs non players characters
 

FatR

First Post
I'm getting a sense of deja-vu here...

… yeah, it's like it's 2003 and someone's going on about the 'cash grab' …

...which went on to command such loyalty from fans that Paizo has been selling PF1 to that base for an extra decade past it's end of life.


There is quite a bit of difference between selling your system as a way to keep playing the system people already knew (3.5) with only a smattering of fixes, and selling it as... what? The difference between PF1 and PF2 is in some aspects greater than the difference between 3.5 and 4E. Practically every single mechanic is upturned. And for what? To make stacking +1s on your attack roll and parsing through lists of useless feats to find those that actually do something more important than ever? To see how well making rules without setting any apparent design goals besides "we want a system in which writing adventures in our trademark style would be easier than in PF1" would go? Or to exploit their hardcore fanbase, as wakedown suggested above on this page?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
There is quite a bit of difference between selling your system as a way to keep playing the system people already knew with only a smattering of fixes, and Practically every single mechanic is upturned.
If every single mechanic is upturned, then it's hardly just a re-boot to re-start the supplement cycle, is it? Sounds more like substantive change.
 

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