D&D General The perfect D&D edition (according to ENWORLD)

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Worst case, what could happen in play if they couldn't reach some accommodation as players?

Obviously, the characters would try to kill eachother.
Yep. I've had characters leave the party because they've had a difference of opinion. Not a big deal.

What's the worst "I don't like being told what my character thinks" is going to lead to? He declines the temps from Inspiring Leader, the Healing from a PDK, or Inspiration (Bardic or otherwise). He's mainly hurting himself, possibly under-contributing, but not out-of-character for a certain sort of lower archetype you do see in genre.
I seem to remember a lot of discussion around "is it bad roleplaying if I let god of cleric A heal me when I worship god B" back in the day. "I don't want to be inspired by a smart or charismatic character" feels like the same kind of tryharding.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
I seem to remember a lot of discussion around "is it bad roleplaying if I let god of cleric A heal me when I worship god B" back in the day
That is not unfamiliar. Nor would it theoretically be bad RP for a Cleric to heal only The Faithful, even only those who toed his theological line & paid their God's Representative on Oerth the proper respect.

. "I don't want to be inspired by a smart or charismatic character" feels like the same kind of tryharding.
Don't want to /feel/ inspired. It's a bit more about autonomy. The players sole purview, especially in 5e, is his character, so when that control is compromised - even hypothetically, even purely to it's benefit - it can rankle.
That's why I want to point out that even the worst-case scenario isn't that bad.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
That is not unfamiliar. Nor would it theoretically be bad RP for a Cleric to heal only The Faithful, even only those who toed his theological line & paid their God's Representative on Oerth the proper respect.
Sure. I don't have an issue with people who choose to create complications in the service of story; I have an issue with players who feel their character concept is going to force conflicts they don't want to have, but for some reason can't simply change their concept to fit.

Don't want to /feel/ inspired. It's a bit more about autonomy. The players sole purview, especially in 5e, is his character, so when that control is compromised - even hypothetically, even purely to it's benefit - it can rankle.
That's why I want to point out that even the worst-case scenario isn't that bad.
Hey, if you want to play a character who doesn't accept heals or buffs because there's something about the other character that bothers you, feel free. But don't blame the warlord or cleric or bard for your own intransigence. If another PC is an Inspiring Leader, help them out and be inspired.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Maybe this isn't what you intend, but "I don't like being told what my character thinks" comes across as "I'm not going to accommodate your concept by being flexible with my character concept." As I said, that doesn't fly in my games. If you want to play the ranger that hates orcs in a party with a half-orc, we work out how we want to approach it before play starts. Maybe they want the tension to exist in-game to further their narratives, or maybe one of them changes their concept.

Huh. I still don't see the connection. My decision to play a ranger that hates orcs in now way inhibits your ability to play an orc. However you want to play it.

Now, it may cause party tension. There may be a practical implications. But it in no way affects your character concept, or your ability to use your character features.

Imagine, instead, you showed up and said, "Ok, I have this cool orc character, but a bunch of his abilities only work if you all think orcs are cute and adorable. So I need your characters to all find orc loveable, ok?."

I'd have a problem with that.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Its an objection I seem to recall you harping on in the past. That, superiority, social position, and authority, implied by a formal position of leadership

But I've no problem with you withdrawing an objection.

Yeah, I've certainly made that caricature. It was an impression I got from the kind of person who...well, the kind of person who wrote that "On your feet, solider!" fluff. But it's really a derivative concern, not the primary objection.

Magic or not, whether you're talking martial (uncontroversially non-magical) or psionic (has gone either way) has mechanical consequences and meaning beyond connotations.

Ok, fair enough. Although (correct me if I'm wrong) it's a bit edge case. Like, whether you can heal in an anti-magic zone, or if Counterspell prevents healing. And if your concern there is that it blows your immersion (although I hate that word) to have your re-fluffed non-magical healing Counterspelled, then you should know exactly how I feel about having that Warlord use "Magnetic Personality" (or whatever) to inspire me into higher HP. There's still a mechanical contradiction between how I want to perceive things, and what the abilities do.

Oh, and this argument that I can always just refuse to allow the abilities to affect me is a load of crap. Thanks, but given the choice to either subject myself to your Warlord's authority or be the jerk at the table (whether as a player refusing to play along with the fiction, or as a DM banning an official class from my table), I'll stick with vociferous opposition to the class itself and hope I won't get put in that spot.

Maybe you'll have to describe it better. Did you understand the distinction between the concept of leadership as an extraordinary skill set vs a position of authority?

Absolutely. Except...it doesn't really make a difference to me. Whether it's extraordinary talent or granted/earned position, your Warlord still ain't da boss of me.

An officer exercising leadership skills is certainly a familiar example of such abilities. But, there are natural leaders with no authority, and officers with no such skills.
So those sorts of examples are of the abilities being exercised, not the authority held. Heck, in some instances authority could make it easier - or harder.

Like I said, doesn't matter. I don't care what the rationale is for dictating my character's emotions/obedience/whatever. You still ain't da boss of me.

And, I have gone on record, repeatedly, that alternate names for the class based on military ranks are poor choices for that reason, they carry an implication of formal authority that the class and it's abilities neither model nor require, and would narrow it's concept unduly.

"Warlord" is pretty terrible, too, but it's indicative of the problem, it's not the problem itself.

Look, I have no problem conceptually with a support class. I don't really care about martial healing (2nd Wind is fine.) I sorta share some of those concerns about action economy and action granting, but I assume that could be cleared up.

The things I object to are:
1) Your character having authority over mine or granting "orders"
2) It being dictated that my character looks up to yours as a "natural leader"
3) The implication that your character, regardless of level, is better at my job than I am. That I'm just a dumb grunt and I need you to tell me how to swing my sword or whatever.

If you (or others) can figure out how to describe all the mechanics you want so that none of the above are true, I will have no more objection than I do to other additional classes. I'm not quite sure how the martial healing would be fluffed to avoid those, but I'm open to it.

An earlier poster described the Sam Gamgee-like "Companion", which I know (from a history of going at it with you on this topic) was traditionally one way of portraying a Warlord. I love it. Bring it on. Let the people who fantasize about being Patton refluff the Companion into a Commander, instead of the other way around.
 
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Psyzhran2357

First Post
This is the pettiest argument over killing a class that I have ever seen. JUST TAKE THE TEMP HP AND THE EXTRA ATTACK. PLEASE.

MY PHONE'S AUTOCORRECT CAN FREEZE IN THE SECOND LOWEST LAYEROF BAATOR
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Huh. I still don't see the connection. My decision to play a ranger that hates orcs in now way inhibits your ability to play an orc. However you want to play it.
Its a more extreme example - either you need to moderate your hatred, find some other way to work together, or, woeat case, you'll have potentially fatal intraparty conflict.

Not that it can't be done: if you take the hate down to the level of mere tension so you can work together, for instance. But, that's changing how your character thinks/feels to enable another player to have the character they want.

The difference is that the stakes are much higher. Intraparty conflict vs mere inefficiency.

Now, it may cause party tension. There may be a practical implications. But it in no way affects your character concept, or your ability to use your character features.
While both characters are alive, anyway.

Now, except for the stakes being lower, there's no difference between that scenario, and your hypothetical existentially egotistical loner, who cannot possibly ever benefit from teamwork (unless magic) or inspiration (unless magic) nor hold positive feelings for another sentient being (unless magic), (Which, apart from the magic exemptions, is not exactly an unknown archetype, it's totally Overkill from The Tick, for instance, arguably only a little more extreme than Boromir.) being confronted with the intolerable prospect of working with someone whose whole deal is teamwork, comraderie, & inspiration (though, if it were Elan from OotS, playfully lampshading the ridiculousness of the 3e Bard, you'd be fine with it, because magic).

Except for the lack of potential for intraparty homicide ("wait homicide doesn't apply to orcs it's just past control!" ... sorry, no, we're moving on, you'll have to murder your half-orc friend off-screen). As I was saying, though the stakes are lower, the ways of dealing are similar. One of you can change character concepts, or even just moderate the degree a bit, or, you can work out a dynamic that supports both concepts, or, you can both just play what you want, and damn the consequences - which, in this case, is just Mr Loner declining the benefits of Raya Sunshine's shtick. If there's another support character, like Elan or a high priest of Sub-Niggoroth or something, things'll likely be fine.

Imagine, instead, you showed up and said, "Ok, I have this cool orc character, but a bunch of his abilities only work if you all think orcs are cute and adorable. So I need your characters to all find orc loveable, ok?."
Ooh cute analogy, with just three subtle flaws:

1) Orcs are notoriously not-cute, really, it's like a point if racial pride, devil's wanting to torment their orc slaves probably pinch their cheeks and say "who's my cutesie-wootsie widdle orc..." because it's worse torture than being disembowled by elves, for them.
2) You posit lots of abilities that don't work without unanimous buy-in, vs abilities that you can choose not to work, on you, for RP reasons.
3) Orcs aren't cute. Now, I know, technically that's the same as the first subtle flaw, but it's just so subtle, I thought it bore mentioning, again.



BTW, outta left field: I assume you saw Peter Pan as a kid?
I bet you didn't clap for Tinkerbell - and were disappointed that she lived.
I mean, choice of handle ... seems a fair guess.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
That is not unfamiliar. Nor would it theoretically be bad RP for a Cleric to heal only The Faithful, even only those who toed his theological line & paid their God's Representative on Oerth the proper respect.
Heh - I tried that once in a brand-new first-level party: a hard-ass Cleric who would only cure worshippers of her own deity. Two problems - one, she was the only real healer in the party; and two, none of the other characters worshipped her deity.

So naturally within the first couple of sessions it came down to "convert or die" when some character lay bleeding-out on the ground. No conversion. No death either though; somebody had some other means of curing (a herb, maybe?). Then another session or two later my Cleric got cut off from the group and knocked out. Three party members raced to get to her as did one monster - all of them with the same goal in mind: finish her off! :)

So much for that idea...
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
This is the pettiest argument over killing a class that I have ever seen. JUST TAKE THE TEMP HP AND THE EXTRA ATTACK. PLEASE.

MY PHONE'S AUTOCORRECT CAN FREEZE IN THE SECOND LOWEST LAYEROF BAATOR

Actually, temp HP make more sense to me than HP, but from everything I read that's a deal killer.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Oh, and this argument that I can always just refuse to allow the abilities to affect me is a load of crap. Thanks, but given the choice to either subject myself to your Warlord's authority or be the jerk at the table (whether as a player refusing to play along with the fiction, or as a DM banning an official class from my table), I'll stick with vociferous opposition to the class itself and hope I won't get put in that spot.
Something has gone very wrong if the DM is considered to be a jerk for banning a class*.

Deciding what classes-races-spells-combinations to allow or not allow in one's game, or invent for it, has been an accepted part of DMing since about the last ice age.

If that's changed somehow, I missed the memo.

* - the exception being if the campaign has already started and there's a PC of that class active in the game - banning it in mid-flight would be pretty jerky, yes.
 

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